Decoupling the NES from the Famicom

[phart010 | 1,783]

34 minutes ago, Splain said:

I can't speak for that utility, but it's definitely not telling the whole story. Go ahead and pop Yellow into a GBC and try to select a color palette on boot. You know, like you can with every gray cart, including Oddworld and Rugrats. With Yellow you cannot; it forces a color palette that can't be changed, which is a behavior exhibited only by games built specifically to use GBC hardware, seen in 100% of black carts and 0% of gray carts. If I was wrong to use the term "ROM header" then I apologize. But Yellow was built for the GBC.

This ☝

[ThePhleo | 2,267]

...and here I come with my opinion that Doraemon no Study Boy: Kanji Yomikaki Master is the final Game Boy game...

[phart010 | 1,783]

12 minutes ago, ThePhleo said:

...and here I come with my opinion that Doraemon no Study Boy: Kanji Yomikaki Master is the final Game Boy game...

No that’s on a different console 

We’re only talking about the American gameboy

🧌

Edited January 10, 2023 by phart010

[the_wizard_666 | 1,333]

3 hours ago, Splain said:

I can't speak for that utility, but it's definitely not telling the whole story. Go ahead and pop Yellow into a GBC and try to select a color palette on boot. You know, like you can with every gray cart, including Oddworld and Rugrats. With Yellow you cannot; it forces a color palette that can't be changed, which is a behavior exhibited only by games built specifically to use GBC hardware, seen in 100% of black carts and 0% of gray carts. If I was wrong to use the term "ROM header" then I apologize. But Yellow was built for the GBC.

I think it is far more likely that it was designed from the ground up as a Game Boy game, and was modified during the localization process to disable changing the colour palette.  The game was released 13 months prior in Japan, which itself was a month prior to the launch of the GBC there.  Those 13 months were used to optimize the game for hardware that was at that point a year old, but was clearly not made to take advantage of it.  The colour palette is hardly telling, as it is identical to the default for the Japanese version.  It seems more likely that Nintendo simply disabled the function allowing it to be changed in the US release.  This is likely, since they had 13 months to figure out how to do it.  Another thing in favour of it being a GB release is that it was also branded as a Game Boy title in Europe, despite being released there in June of 2000.  If it were meant to be a GBC release, wouldn't they make it one by that point, almost two years after the GBC was released? 

Again, the argument bears more weight the other way, in that all DMG releases should be on the Game Boy list and not the GBC list, as the GBC library is the only Nintendo library that uses two different console codes on it's software.  This actually makes sense, as since the GBC was backward compatible for ALL prior Game Boy releases, that they're simply Game Boy games with a more robust colour palette.  Incidentally, these games, to the best of my knowledge, play with the GBC colours when used in the Super Game Boy.  I know because I played the shit out of games like Pokemon Yellow, Survival Kids, Quest: Brian's Journey, and WWF Wrestlemania 2000 via the Super Game Boy back in the day.  They weren't specific to the GBC, if they were they wouldn't be able to run those palettes on the SGB hardware.  But again, I'm against this as well, because the games were marketed as GBC games.  That's the key - the console they were marketed as is the one they belong to.  Pokemon Yellow was marketed as a GB game, not a GBC game, and should be categorized as such. 

[MagusSmurf | 579]

1 hour ago, the_wizard_666 said:

Incidentally, these games, to the best of my knowledge, play with the GBC colours when used in the Super Game Boy. 

NOPE.

Based on the 5 minutes I just played, Pokemon Trading Card on SGB actually does a pretty credible job on giving cards reasonable colors but the world map coloring is clearly not fully baked. The game appears to have both a palette coded in for GBC and a separate one for Super Game Boy.

Edited January 11, 2023 by MagusSmurf

[fcgamer | 5,015]

2 hours ago, the_wizard_666 said:

That's the key - the console they were marketed as is the one they belong to.

Which is the same reason why Famicom and the NES are different entities. Marketed as totally different things, which are somewhat compatible.

[the_wizard_666 | 1,333]

15 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Which is the same reason why Famicom and the NES are different entities. Marketed as totally different things, which are somewhat compatible.

Except that, as discussed, they are the same fucking system.  They weren't marketed separately because they are different, they were marketed in different areas entirely.  The Game Boy and Game Boy Color were marketed as separate things in the same region.  Completely different argument here.  Nice try though.

[the_wizard_666 | 1,333]

44 minutes ago, MagusSmurf said:

NOPE.

Based on the 5 minutes I just played, Pokemon Trading Card on SGB actually does a pretty credible job on giving cards reasonable colors but the world map coloring is clearly not fully baked. The game appears to have both a palette coded in for GBC and a separate one for Super Game Boy.

Well, in fairness, I didn't get a GBC until long after I got a GBA, and never used the GBC at all even after I DID get one.  I suppose a direct comparison of Pokémon Yellow on a SGB vs a GBC would solve that, but the point remains that it was not marketed as a GBC game at all, and thus should not be classed as such.  But yeah, given this precedent, I stand corrected on that single argument.

 

Edit: Perhaps also a comparison between the two and a GBA as well.  I'm not sure now whether that handles GBC vs GB differently from a SGB now, as I did play Pokémon TCG on both the SGB and GBA and don't recall a difference...though that was over 20 years ago now so my memory could be hazy there.

Edited January 11, 2023 by the_wizard_666

[fcgamer | 5,015]

10 minutes ago, the_wizard_666 said:

Except that, as discussed, they are the same fucking system.  They weren't marketed separately because they are different, they were marketed in different areas entirely.  The Game Boy and Game Boy Color were marketed as separate things in the same region.  Completely different argument here.  Nice try though.

One was marketed as a budget computer, the other as a gaming device.

[fcgamer | 5,015]

On a different note, do people even classify the GBC as a different machine, or more as a update to the original GB?

[Splain | 2,703]

GBC is considered a different generation.

Yeah, SGB data is completely separate from GBC colorization data. Any SGB talk has no bearing on the Yellow debate.

And I hard disagree that marketing determines what something is.

[phart010 | 1,783]

10 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

On a different note, do people even classify the GBC as a different machine, or more as a update to the original GB?

I always thought of it as a different machine with backwards compatibility. GBC games are like next-gen handheld games.

Interesting points about Pokémon Yellow not being marketed as a GBC title. Initially I was gonna say it is a GBC game since pallette selection is disabled at startup… that is usually the telltale sign. But since Pikachu is not yellow, I think that disqualifies it from being a GBC title

Edited January 11, 2023 by phart010

[JamesRobot | 6,027]

19 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

One was marketed as a budget computer, the other as a gaming device.

Nah, the Nintendo was marketed more like a VCR.  Or more so as a complete entertainment system.  

[phart010 | 1,783]

For reference, here is a GB/GBC black cart game. When played on Gameboy Color, Megaman is blue and Zero is red. 

 

Pikachu is clearly not yellow. Therefore it’s not GBC. I rest my case

Edited January 11, 2023 by phart010

[fcgamer | 5,015]

Yeah that pokemon pallet isn't that of a color game. I would consider it b/w game too, for sure 

[the_wizard_666 | 1,333]

11 minutes ago, Splain said:

GBC is considered a different generation.

Yeah, SGB data is completely separate from GBC colorization data. Any SGB talk has no bearing on the Yellow debate.

And I hard disagree that marketing determines what something is.

It's listed on the box as a Game Boy game, not GBC.  Not sure what is so hard to understand about that. 

Also, the way it's colorized would have a huge bearing on whether it's optimized for GBC or not, though that still wouldn't change its standing as a Game Boy release in any way.

2 minutes ago, JamesRobot said:

Nah, the Nintendo was marketed more like a VCR.  Or more so as a complete entertainment system.  

I don't recall it being marketed as anything other than a video game system that played video games.  Though I was 4 when the NES arrived in Canada, so I missed out on the real early days.  But it was pretty clear by the time I got mine in '89 what they were marketing it as.

 

1 minute ago, phart010 said:

Pikachu is clearly not yellow. Therefore it’s not GBC. I rest my case

I know you're just being facetious, but it does raise a point.  Pokémon Yellow displays only 4 colors at a time, a far cry from the 56 that the GBC could display.  I contend that my point stands in this case - the palette isn't optimized for GBC use, Game Freak just locked out the option to switch the palette used. 

[Brickman | 4,210]

I have to say that this is the first time I have ever heard Pokemon Yellow classified as a GBC game, pretty interesting but not something I can agree with. 

FWIW it's considered a GB game in Japan, at least all the lists I've ever read list it as a GB game.

[MagusSmurf | 579]

I’m not sure the programming implementation works the same but I do think it was true that GBC Pokemon Yellow uses the same coloring as on Super Game Boy.

...But that’s the thing.

Other non-GBC games that have Super Game Boy enhancements DO NOT retain said enhancements when played on GBC. Pokemon Yellow having its Super Game Boy colors on GBC is NOT Game Boy game behavior!

Also, while simultaneous colors are more limited than you’d expect of a GBC game, it has some tricks to break the 4 color limit (since Super Game Boy could do that too and all), which is easily demonstrable in battle.

Edited January 11, 2023 by MagusSmurf

[MagusSmurf | 579]

14 minutes ago, Brickman said:

I have to say that this is the first time I have ever heard Pokemon Yellow classified as a GBC game, pretty interesting but not something I can agree with. 

FWIW it's considered a GB game in Japan, at least all the lists I've ever read list it as a GB game.

iirc Japanese Yellow does not have the Super Game Boy-originated colors on GBC, so yeah, they’d probably be correct not to classify their version of it as a GBC game.

Edited January 11, 2023 by MagusSmurf

[Splain | 2,703]

Marketing is for making consumers think and react a certain way. It doesn't dictate truth about the product. There are a couple of valid theories about why Nintendo marketed Yellow as a GB game. But I won't mention them here because it's just conjecture. I won't be snarky and pull up a hundred examples of things being marketed as things they aren't, especially video games (Blast processing! "Best Doom ever!") None of it changes the truth about what a game IS.

A clear-cart GBC game could be unplayable on a DMG, but be coded to literally only use 4 colors. That doesn't change what it is.

Japanese Yellow is a Game Boy game. The cartridge is grey and you can change the color palette on a GBC. A change was made to the US version. It's a GBC game in the US. It doesn't matter if it's marketed as a PCE game or a chess board. It doesn't matter if it uses colors poorly. It's a GBC game.

Also, GBA's that play GB/C games basically have a GBC chip on board, so they behave just like a GBC. Take that chip away, and you have the GB micro or DS, which can't play GB/C games.

We're all friends here, and I don't want to hijack this thread anymore so I'm gonna bounce. So someone else can have the last word and I'll see you all around VGS!

[Brickman | 4,210]

2 minutes ago, Splain said:

Marketing is for making consumers think and react a certain way. It doesn't dictate truth about the product. There are a couple of valid theories about why Nintendo marketed Yellow as a GB game. But I won't mention them here because it's just conjecture. I won't be snarky and pull up a hundred examples of things being marketed as things they aren't, especially video games (Blast processing! "Best Doom ever!") None of it changes the truth about what a game IS.

A clear-cart GBC game could be unplayable on a DMG, but be coded to literally only use 4 colors. That doesn't change what it is.

Japanese Yellow is a Game Boy game. The cartridge is grey and you can change the color palette on a GBC. A change was made to the US version. It's a GBC game in the US. It doesn't matter if it's marketed as a PCE game or a chess board. It doesn't matter if it uses colors poorly. It's a GBC game.

Also, GBA's that play GB/C games basically have a GBC chip on board, so they behave just like a GBC. Take that chip away, and you have the GB micro or DS, which can't play GB/C games.

We're all friends here, and I don't want to hijack this thread anymore so I'm gonna bounce. So someone else can have the last word and I'll see you all around VGS!

Splain normal mode:

Splain when Pokemon Yellow is brought up:

 

Loving the info, really interesting

[the_wizard_666 | 1,333]

I don't know why this isn't clear:

GAME BOY COLOR GAMES SAY "GAME BOY COLOR" ON THE BOX.

No matter what else may or may not be true about the cart or the ROM, the simple fact is this: 

POKEMON YELLOW DOES NOT SAY "GAME BOY COLOR" ON THE BOX.

It's not even like it's on the cusp of release where this could be argued away.  The GBC was released 13 months prior to Pokémon Yellow. OVER A YEAR!  If it was meant to be a GBC release, it would say so on the box. END OF STORY.

[MagusSmurf | 579]

10 minutes ago, Splain said:

We’re all friends here, and I don't want to hijack this thread anymore so I'm gonna bounce. So someone else can have the last word and I'll see you all around VGS!

Decoupling the Pokemon Yellow discussion from the Decoupling the NES from the Famicom thread huh?

[MagusSmurf | 579]

3 minutes ago, the_wizard_666 said:

I don't know why this isn't clear:

GAME BOY COLOR GAMES SAY "GAME BOY COLOR" ON THE BOX.

No matter what else may or may not be true about the cart or the ROM, the simple fact is this: 

POKEMON YELLOW DOES NOT SAY "GAME BOY COLOR" ON THE BOX.

It's not even like it's on the cusp of release where this could be argued away.  The GBC was released 13 months prior to Pokémon Yellow. OVER A YEAR!  If it was meant to be a GBC release, it would say so on the box. END OF STORY.

the box is more important than the game itself huh?

Well, I guess that’s definitely a VGS-appropriate opinion...

[phart010 | 1,783]

24 minutes ago, Splain said:

Marketing is for making consumers think and react a certain way. It doesn't dictate truth about the product. There are a couple of valid theories about why Nintendo marketed Yellow as a GB game. But I won't mention them here because it's just conjecture. I won't be snarky and pull up a hundred examples of things being marketed as things they aren't, especially video games (Blast processing! "Best Doom ever!") None of it changes the truth about what a game IS.

There’s a whole bunch of different aspects to the field of product marketing. Blast processing would be considered an advertised feature and best Doom ever is like a slogan or statement.

The specific type of marketing we are referring to as it relates to this discussion is called “product positioning” or “product framing.” Basically, if you bring a product to market, consumers will formulate their own opinions about what role it fulfills. You don’t have control of what ideas they come up with and that’s bad because they may come up with unfavorable ideas about your product. However, with sufficient product positioning or framing, you can create the ideas and beliefs about the product for the consumer.

Edited January 11, 2023 by phart010