Decoupling the NES from the Famicom

[the_wizard_666 | 1,333]

Just now, MagusSmurf said:

the box is more important than the game itself huh?

Well, I guess that’s definitely a VGS-appropriate opinion...

The cartridge also indicates it being a Game Boy game and not a GBC game, due to the DMG item code.  Which also means the case to make GB-compatible GBC games part of the GB list is technically stronger than shifting a game that is clearly meant for release as a GB game over to a system that it was not released for.

[cj_robot | 557]

27 minutes ago, the_wizard_666 said:

The cartridge also indicates it being a Game Boy game and not a GBC game, due to the DMG item code.  Which also means the case to make GB-compatible GBC games part of the GB list is technically stronger than shifting a game that is clearly meant for release as a GB game over to a system that it was not released for.

I agree that it makes the most sense to think about it this way. For instance, there are several Game Gear games that are actually technically Master System roms which puts the hardware into "Master System" mode to run. But these games were branded as Game Gear games and Master System games separately, and we obviously think of them as such.

Another example is the Sega Mark III (Master System) game, Phantasy Star, which was re-released on the Mega Drive as an actual Mark III rom and converter inside a Mega Drive cartridge. At the technical level it is a MS game, but obviously this version would be considered part of the Mega Drive library as well.

Kinda like those black-box NES games that are actually just Famicom boards with pin converters inside the cartridge. Those are considered part of the NES library, even though the Famicom is a completely different console

[T-Pac | 7,879]

On 1/9/2023 at 1:56 PM, Sumez said:

Same!

Haha - somehow the more layered the screengrabs get, the funnier they become.

-CasualCart

[T-Pac | 7,879]

On 1/9/2023 at 2:26 PM, Tulpa said:

To be fair, Wiz probably has an Italian mother threatening to have him sleep with the fishes if he gets a noodle a quarter inch out of alignment. Of course he's going to have exacting lasagna standards.

 

On 1/9/2023 at 3:10 PM, the_wizard_666 said:

Not so much my mom, but my grandma for sure.

 

On 1/9/2023 at 3:18 PM, PII said:

Lol.  I can't help imagining this as a funny little comic.  Too bad there's no one around here who could create such a thing.  ...   ....    .....

.................................    .................................................   ................................

[PII | 2,035]

6 minutes ago, CasualCart said:

OMG LOL SO F曭n9 Funny!!!!

[Tanooki | 5,121]

Wow Picard and grammie garfield, there's something I never EVER could have imagined.  That look, it's almost like that finger pointing angry cat meme mixed with the picard ones.

 

Look... I can't keep up with this crap as I see 2-3 pages added if I'm off more than 6hours or so.

1) Nintendo lists Pokemon Yellow (US) as the last original GB game, but admittedly they did put some GBC hooks into it, that's why it behaves a little different.

2) The Famicom was sold in 1983-?  in Japan as a family computer, it wasn't just a gaming device, but it went that way as the seas of change went.

3) The NES was fake marketed to look like a VCR in 1985 because of chickening out retailers, it went as far as bribes to pay to take stock that didn't move to get it out.  BUT...it always was peddled as a gaming device, even when they tried to push it as an toy initially in the test window, because...that was a test.  When it rolled out nationally 12-18mo later in force, straight up video game box.  That is a big distinction.  One was a swiss army knife(FC) one was not (NES.)

4) Back on GB stuff, the GBC and GB are a confusing mess.  Nintendo couldn't even keep their act together.  I'm seeing hte arguing that well it said Gameboy Color on the box, therefore it's a GBC game.  Right...but wrong!  Nintendo internally they kept lists, and they also use product codes going back to the Game & Watch era on devices.  BLACK cart GBC games are not GBC games according to Nintendo, they're DMG carts coded as such in header and sku coding on the sticker.  Only the see through only work on GBC games got the CGB branding.  So those guys think the GBC had like 100 games not 500 or whatever it is.  It is wrong, but it's not, it's a stupid mess they brought on themselves we suffer with.  Simply put to Nintendo Pokemon Gold and Silver are DMG games, Pokemon Crystal is the only CGB title.  Stupid, but fact, according to NOA/NCL.  During some of the earlier Nintendo leaks (pre-giga leaks) their release PDFs and stuff were put online, it spells these things out by title, by region.

Splain is right, Nintendo does consider the GBC to not be an upgrade but a whole new system, and this trend continued with DS/Lite to DSi, and 3DS(2DS) to *NEW* 3DS(2DS) models.

[fcgamer | 5,015]

38 minutes ago, CasualCart said:

 

 

 

Love it!

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

52 minutes ago, Tanooki said:

2) The Famicom was sold in 1983-?  in Japan as a family computer, it wasn't just a gaming device, but it went that way as the seas of change went.

Except it really wasn't, not by any stretch of the imagination.  It was a clever name, coined by Masayuki Uemura to ape the IBM "Personal Computer" (with the "Famicom" nickname coming from his wife).  [source]  Why do I say this?  Because if it had actually been intended to be used as a personal computer, it would have had its sole computer-esque module available for sale at launch, on July 15, 1983, instead of nearly a year later, on July 21, 1984.  Since the whole system was cartridge based and contained only a single slot, they never even made something akin to Tandy's Multi-Pak Interface, which expanded the Radio Shack/Tandy Color Computer's single cartridge slot into four, allowing multiple cartridge based peripherals to be used at the same time.  As such, Nintendo's "computer" shipped without a keyboard or any sort of direct user interface for nearly a year after launch, and then that was never made compatible with their floppy disk interface (Famicom Disk System) despite that being one of the main options (and later, and for a while, the main option) for computer storage since the debut of mass produced personal/home computers.

Nintendo coined the name because it was clever, and similar to an existing product from another company whose mere mention at the time evoked thoughts of success.  They built a gaming machine, pure and simple, then threw out various add-ons later on to be able to offer additional options to market segments beyond their primary target.  Had they actually intended it to be a computer past its name, the computer bits would have launched at the same time as it did, and possibly even within the same box.  I personally believe that they would have made more computer bits later on as well, had it been their intention, but their lack of appearance could be explained away by a lack of sales or popularity of their single entry into that field, Family Basic.

I find it difficult, if not impossible to believe that with as much finesse as Nintendo has displayed with every other product launch in its modern era, that had they actually intended the Famicom to be a computer first, and primarily, and not simply as a gaming machine, that they could have possibly bungled their execution of that idea as badly as they actually did.  The only way they could have failed as badly as that imagined scenario would be if they called it the "Family Video Game Console" and then failed to release any games for it for a year after launch, which clearly wasn't the case.

[Tanooki | 5,121]

It really was, not sure why we need to look into western revisionist history, I guess whoever wins gets to write the past.

I'm very well familiar with the concept of the naming, it wasn't a literal meaning of an actual family computer by the name sake.  It was a TV based computer catch all though as a device the earlier you go into the history.  Console with a family keyboard to type, the family disk to read/write/save, also a family tape recorder to also in some stuff save as well, and they also had that thing basically login to a Japanese pre-internet (BBS like) service too.  You're right they coined the name as it was clever, but actual marketable accessories go and choices, it was a catch all, not a one shot gaming box, as I said, swiss army knife approach, not single direction.

[phart010 | 1,783]

An important thing that makes it a computer is the serial/accessory port. This makes it modular for use with all kinds of accessories. Even if the keyboard wasn’t available on day one, the inherent modularity always left the door open for more peripherals in the future.

You can say it’s just the same as a controller port, but the NES controller port is like a kids toy connector made to survive getting chewed on by dogs and spaghetti sauce spills. The Famicom connector resembles a PC’s external device connection port

Edited January 11, 2023 by phart010

[phart010 | 1,783]

While we’re still on this topic, has anyone noticed that Gameboy Advance isn’t actually a new system.
 

It’s just a Gameboy 

🧌

Edited January 11, 2023 by phart010

[phart010 | 1,783]

This device does not come with a keyboard.
Therefore it is not a computer.

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

24 minutes ago, Tanooki said:

It really was, not sure why we need to look into western revisionist history, I guess whoever wins gets to write the past.

I'm very well familiar with the concept of the naming, it wasn't a literal meaning of an actual family computer by the name sake.  It was a TV based computer catch all though as a device the earlier you go into the history.  Console with a family keyboard to type, the family disk to read/write/save, also a family tape recorder to also in some stuff save as well, and they also had that thing basically login to a Japanese pre-internet (BBS like) service too.  You're right they coined the name as it was clever, but actual marketable accessories go and choices, it was a catch all, not a one shot gaming box, as I said, swiss army knife approach, not single direction.

Sources?  Interviews?  Documentation?  The Family Disk couldn't be used with the Family Keyboard to save anything, as Family Basic, the sole actual computer module, wasn't compatible with the Famicom Disk System due to the fact that they couldn't be connected at the same time.  A tape recorder could be used, but also wasn't released until nearly a year later, and was then only used in a "computer" capacity for Nintendo's single "computer" release--Family Basic.  Every other use it ever had was purely for games, and only seven of those (Excitebike, Mach Rider, Wrecking Crew, and the third party games Castle Excellent, Arkanoid - Revenge of Doh, Lode Runner, and Nuts & Milk).  The Famicom didn't log into any BBSs or services, the module that you plugged into (in place of Family Basic, etc.) did.

The more this goes on, the more Nintendo looks like they just copy and pasted from the Intellivision playbook, where they released a console, later promised a computer add-on, then haphazardly kicked one out and forgot about it.  If they had actually intended something other than a clever name, there would have been far more actual computer functionality available, not just a single module that had the keyboard, and nothing else.

The modem wasn't linked to their computer stuff at all, as it came about because Hiroshi Yamauchi started toying with the idea of turning Nintendo into a communications company, and using the Famicom as an appliance as common as the telephone.  Nintendo didn't even develop the software for it, a securities company did (Nomura Securities).  His own head developer on the project, Masayuki Uemura, pointed out that they "weren't confident that they would be able to make network games entertaining," and produced give network games for the system, none of which were ever released.  Ultimately, what the modem module turned the Famicom into was a terminal, not a computer.  Similar to those who don't understand computers, but absolutely different and distinct in how they operate, what they can offer, etc.  Nintendo had abandoned all of its actual computer accessories by the time the modem accessory was first thought up (1987) and later launched (1988), giving it zero connection to those.

13 minutes ago, phart010 said:

An important thing that makes it a computer is the serial/accessory port. This makes it modular for use with all kinds of accessories. Even if the keyboard wasn’t available on day one, the inherent modularity always left the door open for more peripherals in the future.

You can say it’s just the same as a controller port, but the NES controller port is like a kids toy connector made to survive getting chewed on by dogs and spaghetti sauce spills. The Famicom connector resembles a PC’s external device connection port

Interesting argument, except that it's not a serial port.  The Famicom (and NES, just like it) lacks a UART chip, which would allow for serial access and support, such as most computers have natively (and which is easily added on by an expansion card for those who don't).  The "accessory" port is really no different from the controller/game port on other consoles, as well as on early computers--it was specifically intended and used for connecting game peripherals, and nothing more.  Nintendo did connect some things which weren't solely game controllers, such as the Family Keyboard or Miracle Piano, but at least one of those two was natively connected to the NES via the controller port, seemingly opening the door for the other to do so as well.

9 minutes ago, phart010 said:

While we’re still on this topic, has anyone noticed that Gameboy Advance isn’t actually a new system.
 

It’s just a Gameboy 

🧌

Dude, seriously, are you solely dedicated to stirring the pot?  The "ADVANCE" is clearly visible across the bottom and is obvious to even my kids as being part of a logo--one that uses and capitalizes on the original, well established Game Boy one.

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

42 minutes ago, phart010 said:

This device does not come with a keyboard.
Therefore it is not a computer.

You forgot the /troll tag at the end of your post.

Unlike the Famicom, a keyboard was sold alongside the Mac Mini at the time it was launched and produced.  Were the two the same, Apple would have failed to give any of its Mac Mini purchasers any way to actually access the computer for nearly a year (11 months) past launch.

This smacks of more trolling, or just an incredibly badly thought out argument and desperate grasp.  Had Apple released zero ways to actually utilize its hardware until a year after launch, it wouldn't have sold, and would have cratered as a product.  Wisely, they made sure to actually include all of their required methods of access for their computers as part of their lineup, thus allowing people to actually use the thing they bought immediately.

Edited January 11, 2023 by darkchylde28

[Tulpa | 3,715]

3 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

Dude, seriously, are you solely dedicated to stirring the pot? 

Some men just want to watch the world burn warm up a bit. 

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

1 hour ago, phart010 said:

An important thing that makes it a computer is the serial/accessory port.

I discovered this link online, which talks about making a "serial cable" in order to communicate with the NES or Famicom.  Reading through it, it appears that one can talk to the system via a proper serial cable (RS232), but only after it's been adapted to speak to the TTL chips that the NES/Famicom uses, so as to not fry the system (serial/RS232 runs at +/- 12V, TTL runs at +5V/0V).  I can see how this would make it seem that there's an all-access "computer port" on the system, when there's not.

Interestingly enough, toward the bottom of the page, it tells you exactly how to wire up such a cable to the controller port on an NES, as well as to the accessory ports on both the Famicom and NES, indicating that while those ports may have offered more pins, the primary ones used for communicating with the system itself in any meaningful way were already contained in the simple controller/joystick port.  Seeing as the controllers for the Famicom are pin-compatible with those on the NES (and directly compatible when considering controllers for the AV/Toploader Famicom), it would seem to further confirm the lack of hardware level differences between the units.

[phart010 | 1,783]

28 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

I discovered this link online, which talks about making a "serial cable" in order to communicate with the NES or Famicom.  Reading through it, it appears that one can talk to the system via a proper serial cable (RS232), but only after it's been adapted to speak to the TTL chips that the NES/Famicom uses, so as to not fry the system (serial/RS232 runs at +/- 12V, TTL runs at +5V/0V).  I can see how this would make it seem that there's an all-access "computer port" on the system, when there's not.

Interestingly enough, toward the bottom of the page, it tells you exactly how to wire up such a cable to the controller port on an NES, as well as to the accessory ports on both the Famicom and NES, indicating that while those ports may have offered more pins, the primary ones used for communicating with the system itself in any meaningful way were already contained in the simple controller/joystick port.  Seeing as the controllers for the Famicom are pin-compatible with those on the NES (and directly compatible when considering controllers for the AV/Toploader Famicom), it would seem to further confirm the lack of hardware level differences between the units.

Had I not trolled, maybe you would have never presented us with such valuable information

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

1 minute ago, phart010 said:

Had I not trolled, maybe you would have never presented us with such valuable information

Had you done your own research, I wouldn't have needed to. 

[phart010 | 1,783]

1 minute ago, darkchylde28 said:

Had you done your own research, I wouldn't have needed to. 

Thank you for your contributions to this discussion. I value you info and I’m sure others here do too

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

1 minute ago, phart010 said:

Thank you for your contributions to this discussion. I value you info and I’m sure others here do too

Thank you, but seriously, just don't troll.  It's not necessary to stoop to that level in order to move discussion along.  It's just as simple to ask, "Well, what if" or "what about" versus stating erroneous, inflammatory ideas as fact, hoping that someone will dig deep to dispute it.

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

Poking around here, it seems that Nintendo didn't actually ever release any software besides games on its Family Data Recorder, and those were included as samples with the unit when it was sold.  Zero applications, 100% games plus BASIC on a cartridge which would allow you to program your own stuff, if desired.  So, at best, the Family Basic set really turned out to be more of a game development kit in actual use than any sort of actual computer add-on for the system, as it was presumably intended.  Not to beat a dead horse, but seriously, if Nintendo had intended the Famicom to first and foremost be an actual computer, far more effort and execution would have gone into the "computer" part of what was developed and released than actually occurred.

[phart010 | 1,783]

20 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

Thank you, but seriously, just don't troll.  It's not necessary to stoop to that level in order to move discussion along.  It's just as simple to ask, "Well, what if" or "what about" versus stating erroneous, inflammatory ideas as fact, hoping that someone will dig deep to dispute it.

These “inflammatory ideas”…. some would call it comedy.

If you don’t see it that way, just remember who’s posting.

 

11 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

Poking around here, it seems that Nintendo didn't actually ever release any software besides games on its Family Data Recorder, and those were included as samples with the unit when it was sold.  Zero applications, 100% games plus BASIC on a cartridge which would allow you to program your own stuff, if desired.  So, at best, the Family Basic set really turned out to be more of a game development kit in actual use than any sort of actual computer add-on for the system, as it was presumably intended.  Not to beat a dead horse, but seriously, if Nintendo had intended the Famicom to first and foremost be an actual computer, far more effort and execution would have gone into the "computer" part of what was developed and released than actually occurred.

Where are all the Family Basic homebrews?

[the_wizard_666 | 1,333]

2 hours ago, phart010 said:

While we’re still on this topic, has anyone noticed that Gameboy Advance isn’t actually a new system.
 

It’s just a Gameboy 

🧌

It also says "Advance" along the bottom.  Just saying.

1 hour ago, darkchylde28 said:

Dude, seriously, are you solely dedicated to stirring the pot?  

Based on every other post they've made in this thread, I'd say that would be the case.  Their posts are clearly facetious in nature.

 

29 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

Thank you, but seriously, just don't troll.  It's not necessary to stoop to that level in order to move discussion along.  It's just as simple to ask, "Well, what if" or "what about" versus stating erroneous, inflammatory ideas as fact, hoping that someone will dig deep to dispute it.

I disagree.  Arguments like this get pretty heated.  Injecting a bit of obvious levity doesn't hurt.  And in many ways, it points out how silly it is to take this shit so seriously. 

8 minutes ago, phart010 said:

Where are all the Family Basic homebrews?

On old cassette tapes that have been overwritten a billion times since 

Let's also not forget that BASIC, while easy to learn, is not exactly code efficient.  You could make some basic (pun absolutely intended) games, but they would be vastly inferior to anything programmed in machine code.  

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

11 minutes ago, phart010 said:

Where are all the Family Basic homebrews?

That's what I'm talkin' 'bout.  People could record their own programs onto cassette tapes, but it seems like few ever actually did, or at least so few that nothing has survived to the current day or yet come to light despite enthusiasts constantly digging into every facet of Nintendo's history.

[the_wizard_666 | 1,333]

6 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

That's what I'm talkin' 'bout.  People could record their own programs onto cassette tapes, but it seems like few ever actually did, or at least so few that nothing has survived to the current day or yet come to light despite enthusiasts constantly digging into every facet of Nintendo's history.

Code sharing was pretty big back then.  I'm sure there's some submissions posted in some contemporary Famicom magazines.  The odds of a tape with a game on it seeing the light of day is exceedingly rare, due to factors like media degradation and the fact that Satoru's little brother may have overwrote the tape when they recorded their favorite song off the radio.