Decoupling the NES from the Famicom

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

45 minutes ago, phart010 said:

This guy is reviewing the Family Basic program. He mentioned the cart came with a few applications including:

-simple word processor 
-calculator 
-calendar

doesnt seem like much, but then again computers back didn’t do nearly as much as they do today.

Also some one in the video comments mentioned a bunch of programs being archived in the “Internet Archive” I am following up with them for a link

Great video.  He didn't talk about them, but did show the calculator and "word processor" (it's clearly a note pad based on the title "Message Board"), and mentioned he thought it had a calendar, but never went back to actually provide a screenshot like the other two functions, so I'm going to say that's likely absent unless someone can show it present on the cart.  According to the top post at this link, it apparently defaults to Game Basic, then cycles to Calculator, Music Program, then Message Board before looping back to the first option.

Computers back then didn't do much by default, but there was a ton of software available for them.  It's great to see that Family Basic could do more than just BASIC, but still sad that Nintendo apparently abandoned the add-on beyond what they put in the box with Family Basic, the Family Data Recorder, and Family Basic V3.  It's also sad that Nintendo didn't even write their own BASIC for the system, but instead bought/licensed the exact same one that Hudson had created for Sharp.

Edit:  Here's an example of someone actually using "Message Board."  That thing is in no way, shape, or form a "word processor," lol.

35 minutes ago, Ankos said:

Again, not super knowledgeable on the history of the Famicom. I'm honestly just here to keep the conversation going and enjoy the ride. On the wikipedia page for Family BASIC it does mention some usage of it for the purposes of game development, though its examples are limited, and its sources are in Japanese so I'm not sure if they're legit

Edit: Here is a a site that has some examples of games made for Family BASIC. I hope that helps Link

Neat!  Sadly, it doesn't actually talk about where the programs came from.  Based on the images that are shown, it really looks like the games are far too polished to have come from "Little Johnny" typing away on his Family Basic setup at home versus some professionals submitting things here and there to spark more interest/faith in the add-on.  Happy to be proved wrong if something solid does turn up, though.

30 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

This statement means that I believe it to be true, based on the sources that I heard it from, but as I personally don't own one and therefore cannot confirm it firsthand, I will give myself an out.

That's not evidence, though.  Plenty of kids believed that one kid who claimed his uncle worked for Nintendo, but that didn't make them right.

28 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

So is Pokemon Yellow a Game Boy or a Game Boy Color game?

I would say Game Boy based on all the actual evidence provided.  It came in a Game Boy branded box, was listed as the last official Game Boy game released by Nintendo, and while it didn't allow you to change the color palette when starting up (most likely to enforce the "yellow" theme), it was labeled as a DMG cart.  While one person said that it had a Game Boy Color "header," they later said that they didn't actually look at it, indicating to me that this isn't known one way or the other, so I'll err on the side of what Nintendo has to say as well as all the other evidence at hand.

28 minutes ago, Ankos said:

Looks like that gaming alexandria page mentions a family basic v2.0 and v2.1

The video that @phart010 provided mentioned those as well, but it's hard to tell whether those were referenced in documentation alone or if they really did exist, as there don't seem to be any dumps of them online nor anyone showing off how they own "all four" Family Basic carts (1.0, 2.0, 2.1, and 3.0).  Interesting, but I'm going to take a "wait and see" position on them, as they could just as easily have been internal to Nintendo and never actually released.

Edited January 12, 2023 by darkchylde28

[phart010 | 1,741]

18 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

Great video.  He didn't talk about them, but did show the calculator and "word processor" (it's clearly a note pad based on the title "Message Board"), and mentioned he thought it had a calendar, but never went back to actually provide a screenshot like the other two functions, so I'm going to say that's likely absent unless someone can show it present on the cart.  According to the top post at this link, it apparently defaults to Game Basic, then cycles to Calculator, Music Program, then Message Board before looping back to the first option.

Computers back then didn't do much by default, but there was a ton of software available for them.  It's great to see that Family Basic could do more than just BASIC, but still sad that Nintendo apparently abandoned the add-on beyond what they put in the box with Family Basic, the Family Data Recorder, and Family Basic V3.  It's also sad that Nintendo didn't even write their own BASIC for the system, but instead bought/licensed the exact same one that Hudson had created for Sharp.

Edit:  Here's an example of someone actually using "Message Board."  That thing is in no way, shape, or form a "word processor," lol.

Neat!  Sadly, it doesn't actually talk about where the programs came from.  Based on the images that are shown, it really looks like the games are far too polished to have come from "Little Johnny" typing away on his Family Basic setup at home versus some professionals submitting things here and there to spark more interest/faith in the add-on.  Happy to be proved wrong if something solid does turn up, though.

That's not evidence, though.  Plenty of kids believed that one kid who claimed his uncle worked for Nintendo, but that didn't make them right.

I would say Game Boy based on all the actual evidence provided.  It came in a Game Boy branded box, was listed as the last official Game Boy game released by Nintendo, and while it didn't allow you to change the color palette when starting up (most likely to enforce the "yellow" theme), it was labeled as a DMG cart.  While one person said that it had a Game Boy Color "header," they later said that they didn't actually look at it, indicating to me that this isn't known one way or the other, so I'll err on the side of what Nintendo has to say as well as all the other evidence at hand.

The video that @phart010 provided mentioned those as well, but it's hard to tell whether those were referenced in documentation alone or if they really did exist, as there don't seem to be any dumps of them online nor anyone showing off how they own "all four" Family Basic carts (1.0, 2.0, 2.1, and 3.0).  Interesting, but I'm going to take a "wait and see" position on them, as they could just as easily have been internal to Nintendo and never actually released.

If anyone happens to have a bunch of Family Basic carts they could boot them up. I’m sure at least double digit percentages of the original carts got mailed in and replaced with the Version 2’s

[JamesRobot | 5,883]

55 minutes ago, Gloves said:

FYI The Nintendo Entertainment System was so named to make it sound less like "just a video game system", same as how it looks - they wanted western audiences to feel it was a solid hardware similar to a VHS player, rather than a video game system, which had a lot of mental baggage for people cuz of the crash. 

Names are just marketing. 

Ftfy

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

Here's what seems to be (it's nearly an hour long, so I didn't watch 100% of it, but skipped through it a bunch) a fairly complete demonstration of everything available on a Family Basic cartridge.  And, interestingly enough, instead of a BASIC version we've uncovered yet, it boots up to BASIC showing "V2.1A."  Looking at the amount of RAM free, as well as the fact that he can call up built-in games from the BASIC prompt, it appears that he's actually using a V3 cartridge, since that's the one that upgraded working RAM from 2K to 4K and added the "GAME 0" through "GAME 3" programs as part of the BASIC environment.

His "facts" are all over the place (and mostly wrong) in his video description, but he does show what he claims is Family Basic V2 from the start of the video up until 26:03, and then from 26:04 forward, he very clearly shows V3.  At least we get a good look at what all the cartridge(s) had to offer!

 

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

3 minutes ago, phart010 said:

If anyone happens to have a bunch of Family Basic carts they could boot them up. I’m sure at least double digit percentages of the original carts got mailed in and replaced with the Version 2’s

That absolutely sounds like something that could have happened during the 80s.  Do you have any documentation on that, or can you recall where you heard of that so that we can try to dig down further and see what concrete evidence we can dig up?  Based on seeing "V2.1A" in that V3 video when BASIC booted, I'm wondering if there are only actually "three" versions of the program, with people mistaking V3 for an additiona V2 revision due to how it boots up.

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

FYI, this guy shows V2.0A on boot of BASIC, but doesn't show an actual cartridge, nor state (in what little I watched) that he's actually operating real hardware versus using an emulator.  So, somewhere there is or was a cartridge with unknown outer labeling that contained V2(.0A), but it's unknown for certain whether this was a public release and/or dumped.

[phart010 | 1,741]

3 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

That absolutely sounds like something that could have happened during the 80s.  Do you have any documentation on that, or can you recall where you heard of that so that we can try to dig down further and see what concrete evidence we can dig up?  Based on seeing "V2.1A" in that V3 video when BASIC booted, I'm wondering if there are only actually "three" versions of the program, with people mistaking V3 for an additiona V2 revision due to how it boots up.

According to Gaming Alexandria link that @Ankosposted:

https://www.gamingalexandria.com/wp/2022/02/nintendo-family-basic-type-in-games/
 

When a consumer would mail in their version 1 carts to Nintendo, Nintendo would send them the version 2 carts as a replacement. This sounds like a thing Nintendo would do, but Gaming Alexandria didn’t provide any references. The website is still maintained so I’m sure we could ask them for more info.

Anyhow, I’m sure that if this were the case, at least 1 out of 10 consumers would have participated (remember this is Japanese people, not Americans)

[phart010 | 1,741]

15 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

FYI, this guy shows V2.0A on boot of BASIC, but doesn't show an actual cartridge, nor state (in what little I watched) that he's actually operating real hardware versus using an emulator.  So, somewhere there is or was a cartridge with unknown outer labeling that contained V2(.0A), but it's unknown for certain whether this was a public release and/or dumped.

The Gaming Alexandria page stated the V2 carts look identical to V1 carts

edit: no it didn’t. I must have read it on one of these other pages this morning 

Edited January 12, 2023 by phart010

[Gloves | 12,051]

24 minutes ago, JamesRobot said:

Ftfy

That does sound more like me!

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

5 minutes ago, phart010 said:

According to Gaming Alexandria link that @Ankosposted:

https://www.gamingalexandria.com/wp/2022/02/nintendo-family-basic-type-in-games/

When a consumer would mail in their version 1 carts to Nintendo, Nintendo would send them the version 2 carts as a replacement. This sounds like a thing Nintendo would do, but Gaming Alexandria didn’t provide any references. The website is still maintained so I’m sure we could ask them for more info.

Anyhow, I’m sure that if this were the case, at least 1 out of 10 consumers would have participated (remember this is Japanese people, not Americans)

Thanks for that.  I scanned all the way down to the type in programs and the stuff about them versus reading all the way through the page.  I don't see any specific reason to doubt the details of the mail in process given all of the other information provided and how well it's documented, but we could absolutely reach out and see if they're able to provide specific sources for those details.  In fact, I went ahead and did just that a few moments ago and will advise in this thread if I hear back.

4 minutes ago, phart010 said:

The Gaming Alexandria page stated the V2 carts look identical to V1 carts

It infers that, but upon reading through the page, I couldn't find anything that said one way or the other.  The only mention I saw of what the carts looked like was saying that V3 came separate on a red cartridge.

[the_wizard_666 | 1,329]

3 hours ago, fcgamer said:

If things were categorized and listed as FC/NES, some people might be more receptive of the two being grouped together. For starters, Famicom comes before Nintendo Entertainment System alphabetically. Secondly, it was the original. And finally, even if we consider the two machines to be the same, the Famicom is the superior product, in terms of what it offered users. Listing it as NES/FC feels quite western-centric and biased, and brings us back to the idea that had been floating around once on Nintendo Age and elsewhere: I don't like / want to play / collect Famicom games, so I'll just immediately ask someone to "repro" one for me. 

So your reasoning for separation is that people in the west place their regional variant ahead of the Japanese one, despite the fact that the media this is done with is inherently designed to be consumed by western audiences, many of whom may not even know about the Famicom?  That just...wow...

Also, that's a gross oversimplification of matters pertaining to repros.  Most people want only a handful of games, many of which are not playable in English and need to be translated.  They also generally don't want a pile of Japanese carts they can't play, so they opt to put it on a cart that they CAN play.  Sure they could get the original cart and an adapter, but some don't want to go that route.  Some would also rather it be on a Famicom cart, but translated so they can enjoy it.  Some don't have a preference, and will go with the cheaper/easier option.  @Tanooki got his SimCity Famicom cart because it was cheaper and more convenient than having me add a converter and slap it into a US shell because I was using a Famicom donor board.  But even if that wasn't the case and he wanted a Famicom version, I would be more than happy to do it, provided it falls into my rule - no 1:1 copies of games that exist in the region.  So if you really want a Jaws Famicom cart, I can help you...just don't ask me for Dig Dug.

[fcgamer | 4,833]

1 hour ago, darkchylde28 said:

Thanks for that.  I scanned all the way down to the type in programs and the stuff about them versus reading all the way through the page.  I don't see any specific reason to doubt the details of the mail in process given all of the other information provided and how well it's documented, but we could absolutely reach out and see if they're able to provide specific sources for those details.  In fact, I went ahead and did just that a few moments ago and will advise in this thread if I hear back.

It infers that, but upon reading through the page, I couldn't find anything that said one way or the other.  The only mention I saw of what the carts looked like was saying that V3 came separate on a red cartridge.

Didn't I just say this stuff a page or two back? Geez.

[fcgamer | 4,833]

52 minutes ago, the_wizard_666 said:

Also, that's a gross oversimplification of matters pertaining to repros.  Most people want only a handful of games, many of which are not playable in English and need to be translated.  They also generally don't want a pile of Japanese carts they can't play, so they opt to put it on a cart that they CAN play. 

You're right, it is a gross simplification of matters, as things were getting really, really stupid on NA regarding this back in the day. For most folks, they weren't getting just RPGs on repros, rather just any and all gams that they desired that weren't available in 72 pin format. People even admitted a lot of the time that it was for aesthetic reasons and what not, but when I inquired to the reverse (i.e. said I refused to play if the games weren't on Famicom format), people got bent and had a large WTF party amongst each other. This whole attitude was the sole driving factor for the ITG Soft games being released ONLY in Famicom format, btw.

[Gloves | 12,051]

1 minute ago, fcgamer said:

You're right, it is a gross simplification of matters, as things were getting really, really stupid on NA regarding this back in the day. For most folks, they weren't getting just RPGs on repros, rather just any and all gams that they desired that weren't available in 72 pin format. People even admitted a lot of the time that it was for aesthetic reasons and what not, but when I inquired to the reverse (i.e. said I refused to play if the games weren't on Famicom format), people got bent and had a large WTF party amongst each other. This whole attitude was the sole driving factor for the ITG Soft games being released ONLY in Famicom format, btw.

I prefer the Famicom form factor, personally. I love the little boxes and carts, they're much nicer from a space perspective, and you've seen me say many times before I'm sure that the box art in Japan is waaaayyyy better than the North Americanized stuff. 

Asian regions tend to prefer more information, and it extends to their art as well; more often you'll get a big montage of characters rather than something just big.

Boring:

Holy shit let's fuckin' GO:

 

And there's a million more examples of this. I grew up on Dragon Ball and Sailor Moon, Gundam Wing, Escaflowne, anime! BIG! LOUD! EXCITING! ACTION!

I was so glad I got to play games like Kendo Rage, since I mostly picked up $5 games at Flea Markets. If I was at Blockbuster all the time I'd never have gone for the game with this cover:

 

That shit ain't indicative of the game at all!

FUCK YEAH:

 

/rant

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

2 hours ago, fcgamer said:

Didn't I just say this stuff a page or two back? Geez.

Perhaps you did, but I'm not going digging to make sure.  However, up to this moment, you have yet to actually back up any opinion that you've thrown around as fact with actual sources, citations, and evidence when questioned on it or disagreed with.  You've simply thrown out more unsupported opinions or gone the "eyeroll" route instead of actually doing anything to prove your case.  That sort of thing ranks right up there with "my uncle works at Nintendo."

2 hours ago, fcgamer said:

You're right, it is a gross simplification of matters, as things were getting really, really stupid on NA regarding this back in the day. For most folks, they weren't getting just RPGs on repros, rather just any and all gams that they desired that weren't available in 72 pin format. People even admitted a lot of the time that it was for aesthetic reasons and what not, but when I inquired to the reverse (i.e. said I refused to play if the games weren't on Famicom format), people got bent and had a large WTF party amongst each other. This whole attitude was the sole driving factor for the ITG Soft games being released ONLY in Famicom format, btw.

If I had to guess, I'd say that it's because you, too, are a Westerner, and want to hold seemingly any and all Asian games, systems, accessories, etc., over all others, regardless of how the (online) group you're part of, or even the world around you feel about them.  Fundamentally, you're not wrong in the logic of what you're saying went on--what's good for the goose is good for the gander, after all.  But being so blatantly pro-Asian and anti-West as you are with this stuff, it comes off a lot differently than if you had actually been born and raised there (and in that culture) versus emigrating there as an adult.

You personally don't like it when people don't like the Famicom?  (Or perhaps a better way of putting it would be when they don't appreciate it the way you do.)  Well, guess how everybody else feels when you do nothing but shit all over the NES, etc., all the live long day.  Once again, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, you reap what you sow, etc.

[Gloves | 12,051]

3 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

what's good for the goose is good for the gander

Unless the goose is named "Gobbles".

[Tanooki | 4,994]

Well said about box art @Gloves most often than not, it wasn't as good, even when it was done well, it just wasn't done as nicely like SMB3 all minimalist, no reason for that.  Then you had the hell that was Kendo Rage, Ranma 1/2 is a huge offender as it looks even more bland and terrible.  How Ultraman snuck by surprised me.   A lot of these boxes had some incredible anime art in the 16bit and 8bit era, 16bit we had enough anime at Suncoast Video etc as it was early main stream to keep that stupidity up was quite frankly borderline insulting.  I've still got Kendo Rage and Ranma but if it were for me not knowing what they are, the art is a turn off.  I too have the feels for the old US style as it is what we had, but damn I do so enjoy the Japanese colors, shapes, sizes of the carts FC and SFC had and the stickers in most cases too.

[fcgamer | 4,833]

50 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

Perhaps you did, but I'm not going digging to make sure.  However, up to this moment, you have yet to actually back up any opinion that you've thrown around as fact with actual sources, citations, and evidence when questioned on it or disagreed with.  You've simply thrown out more unsupported opinions or gone the "eyeroll" route instead of actually doing anything to prove your case.  That sort of thing ranks right up there with "my uncle works at Nintendo."

Everyone on VGS knows that if / when I write something on here and start it out with the words "In all seriousness though" , that I'm about to throw something out that is non-trolling and if it is a statement regarding a fact, it is an unbiased one, rather than my personal opinion. 

You need to understand that when we are talking about sources, it could be anything from forum posts on Famicom World from five years ago, linked to translated documents, to Chinese language magazines, interviews, contents of private collectors' collections, etc. That being said, it is not always the easiest to conjure up the exact source (so if I say "Oh it's on Famicom World, look there") then those that want to dig can do so and find it, but it's not something I'm going to waste my time and effort doing for the sake of a discussion like this. 

Furthermore, there are plenty of instances where I know things, but am not allowed to share the sources, as part of the agreement to know about said things to begin with. This comes more with the territory of bootleg stuff / collectors.

So no, FBV2 isn't a My uncle worked at Nintendo kind of statement, nor is the magazine code software, and you guys should know me enough by now to know better than to even think such thoughts.

[Ankos | 505]

On this FCW thread a prototype V0 is mentioned

[fcgamer | 4,833]

59 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

If I had to guess, I'd say that it's because you, too, are a Westerner, and want to hold seemingly any and all Asian games, systems, accessories, etc., over all others, regardless of how the (online) group you're part of, or even the world around you feel about them.  Fundamentally, you're not wrong in the logic of what you're saying went on--what's good for the goose is good for the gander, after all.  But being so blatantly pro-Asian and anti-West as you are with this stuff, it comes off a lot differently than if you had actually been born and raised there (and in that culture) versus emigrating there as an adult.

You personally don't like it when people don't like the Famicom?  (Or perhaps a better way of putting it would be when they don't appreciate it the way you do.)  Well, guess how everybody else feels when you do nothing but shit all over the NES, etc., all the live long day.  Once again, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, you reap what you sow, etc.

Hey, there's tons of things I hate about Asia - it definitely isn't all butterflies, flowers, and puppy dogs. Pro tip: while local noodles are good, stay clear of any "Italian" noodles, AKA Taiwanese-made pasta. It's gonna be watery sauce and soggy noodles, definitely not comparable to your mom's homemade spaghetti, and quite pricy too.

I feel nostalgia towards the NES, but through years of pin connector problems, the love stops there. I think most of us can agree that the Famicom, AV Famicom, and the top loading NES are much better in terms of functionality than the toaster, no matter how nostalgic we feel towards the gray box. Even my brother feels this way, and he is beyond set in his ways and opinions.

The rest of the conclusions just came later. Lots of AAA titles with tons of add-ons and peripherals really brings the one machine to life, and is IMO > than lack of add-ons and a library made up of mediocre wonky ports of computer games. But you're right, that's just me and my opinion, and it must just be some ploy to shit all over the NES in an unfair manner. 

[the_wizard_666 | 1,329]

3 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Everyone on VGS knows that if / when I write something on here and start it out with the words "In all seriousness though" , that I'm about to throw something out that is non-trolling and if it is a statement regarding a fact, it is an unbiased one, rather than my personal opinion. 

You need to understand that when we are talking about sources, it could be anything from forum posts on Famicom World from five years ago, linked to translated documents, to Chinese language magazines, interviews, contents of private collectors' collections, etc. That being said, it is not always the easiest to conjure up the exact source (so if I say "Oh it's on Famicom World, look there") then those that want to dig can do so and find it, but it's not something I'm going to waste my time and effort doing for the sake of a discussion like this. 

Furthermore, there are plenty of instances where I know things, but am not allowed to share the sources, as part of the agreement to know about said things to begin with. This comes more with the territory of bootleg stuff / collectors.

So no, FBV2 isn't a My uncle worked at Nintendo kind of statement, nor is the magazine code software, and you guys should know me enough by now to know better than to even think such thoughts.

Not that I'm doubting your sources, as I know you're pretty well versed and have access to a ton of stuff that we here simply don't.  But with that said, if someone asks for a source and you say "go get it yourself," that doesn't really help your arguments in any way, and in fact is more likely to foster disbelief.  If you can't name your source, you can still post snippets of the conversation with any identifying info redacted.  You see that all the time when people post emails with the address covered up.  Also, knowing from personal experience, time makes facts fuzzy in the mind.  I've sworn up and down about things being exactly as I remembered, only to have egg on my face when I actually found the documentation.  It never hurts to dig up a source, if only to verify that your own information is exactly how you remember it.  And with all that said, just because your word comes from credible sources doesn't mean that your word should be taken as gospel.  Provide whatever information you can to back up your statements, especially when someone asks for said information.  And double so when you have access to sources we here in North America don't.

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

5 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Everyone on VGS knows that if / when I write something on here and start it out with the words "In all seriousness though" , that I'm about to throw something out that is non-trolling and if it is a statement regarding a fact, it is an unbiased one, rather than my personal opinion. 

You need to understand that when we are talking about sources, it could be anything from forum posts on Famicom World from five years ago, linked to translated documents, to Chinese language magazines, interviews, contents of private collectors' collections, etc. That being said, it is not always the easiest to conjure up the exact source (so if I say "Oh it's on Famicom World, look there") then those that want to dig can do so and find it, but it's not something I'm going to waste my time and effort doing for the sake of a discussion like this. 

Furthermore, there are plenty of instances where I know things, but am not allowed to share the sources, as part of the agreement to know about said things to begin with. This comes more with the territory of bootleg stuff / collectors.

So no, FBV2 isn't a My uncle worked at Nintendo kind of statement, nor is the magazine code software, and you guys should know me enough by now to know better than to even think such thoughts.

Obviously based on the amount of pushback you're getting in this specific thread, alongside the dissent and eyerolls you get in other threads when you just trot out whatever thoughts enter your head as facts, not everyone on VGS is down to believe you, especially when what you're saying isn't popular.  If you want to be regarded as a historian, then you need to act like one, and actually document all of your sources, even if you don't immediately trot them out every time.  If it's not good enough to remain on Wikipedia, it's not good enough for a bunch of us on here.  In the case of pirate/bootleg stuff, even saying that you know whatever because you spoke to the source of that stuff but can't divulge who it is per your promise to them is more than you've been putting out there as far as verification of your statements.  So, unless you're willing to back up disputed claims properly, yes, it absolutely does carry all the weight of "my uncle works at Nintendo."  And hey, that's not necessarily always a bad thing, because some kids' uncles really did work at Nintendo.  They just had to prove it to the kids who didn't believe them.

[the_wizard_666 | 1,329]

5 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Hey, there's tons of things I hate about Asia - it definitely isn't all butterflies, flowers, and puppy dogs. Pro tip: while local noodles are good, stay clear of any "Italian" noodles, AKA Taiwanese-made pasta. It's gonna be watery sauce and soggy noodles, definitely not comparable to your mom's homemade spaghetti, and quite pricy too.

I feel nostalgia towards the NES, but through years of pin connector problems, the love stops there. I think most of us can agree that the Famicom, AV Famicom, and the top loading NES are much better in terms of functionality than the toaster, no matter how nostalgic we feel towards the gray box. Even my brother feels this way, and he is beyond set in his ways and opinions.

The rest of the conclusions just came later. Lots of AAA titles with tons of add-ons and peripherals really brings the one machine to life, and is IMO > than lack of add-ons and a library made up of mediocre wonky ports of computer games. But you're right, that's just me and my opinion, and it must just be some ploy to shit all over the NES in an unfair manner. 

Your mention of Taiwanese pasta makes me think of American pizza.  Italian cuisine is really butchered by the rest of the world

Anyway, I think that, since the hardware is fully capable of doing what needs doing on both sides of the pond, there's no reason why we can't (or shouldn't) allow people to play on the format they prefer.  If they want to play a Famicom game on a 72 pin cart, they should be allowed to, and the same goes for a 60-pin version of an NES cart.  I would rather people be able to access the best of both sides of the Pacific rather than trying to exclude people from experiencing those games because they weren't meant for the place they reside in.

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

3 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Hey, there's tons of things I hate about Asia - it definitely isn't all butterflies, flowers, and puppy dogs. Pro tip: while local noodles are good, stay clear of any "Italian" noodles, AKA Taiwanese-made pasta. It's gonna be watery sauce and soggy noodles, definitely not comparable to your mom's homemade spaghetti, and quite pricy too.

I referred specifically to video games, not Asia as a whole.  Great, you're more even keeled when it comes to other aspects of Asian culture, but it doesn't stop you from dropping turds all over Western systems, games, etc. constantly, all the while praising the Asian ones.

5 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

I feel nostalgia towards the NES, but through years of pin connector problems, the love stops there. I think most of us can agree that the Famicom, AV Famicom, and the top loading NES are much better in terms of functionality than the toaster, no matter how nostalgic we feel towards the gray box. Even my brother feels this way, and he is beyond set in his ways and opinions.

I think the wave of people who turned their backs on the toploading NES in preference to the toaster's native AV out once playing via RF adapter became gauche tells a different story.  Once things like boiling the 72 pin connector and the Blinking Light Win kind of sealed the deal on the mass migration you're talking about.  People will still have their own opinions about whichever system they prefer, but the days of the toaster NES being a pariah because of the 72-pin connector being unreliable are long gone.

9 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

The rest of the conclusions just came later. Lots of AAA titles with tons of add-ons and peripherals really brings the one machine to life, and is IMO > than lack of add-ons and a library made up of mediocre wonky ports of computer games. But you're right, that's just me and my opinion, and it must just be some ploy to shit all over the NES in an unfair manner. 

Basically, yeah.  And as for those "wonky computer ports?"  Did you ever stop and look at who published them?  Sure as heck wasn't Western developers.  Remember how FCI shat out all the AD&D games, and the Ultimas?  Guess what, they're Asian!  While FCI itself was headquartered in New York, the staff was Asian, and the company was owned and operated by Fuji, straight out of Japan!  Before spending all your time complaining about what turds the whole US-exclusive library was, spend some more time looking at who actually made those games.  Pool of Radiance, one of my favorite PC games of all time, was ported by Marionette, a Japanese company, then published in Japan by Pony Canyon and in the US by FCI (another Japanese company, just in American clothes).  If the US-exclusive library is the cesspool that you claim it is, it was made so by Nintendo of Japan and many non-Western developers and publishers.  In that light, your grand desire to separate the two libraries comes off more of you trying to wash off guilt or a dirty little secret versus any altruistic, unbiased reasons you might claim.

[fcgamer | 4,833]

10 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

Obviously based on the amount of pushback you're getting in this specific thread, alongside the dissent and eyerolls you get in other threads when you just trot out whatever thoughts enter your head as facts, not everyone on VGS is down to believe you, especially when what you're saying isn't popular.  If you want to be regarded as a historian, then you need to act like one, and actually document all of your sources, even if you don't immediately trot them out every time.  If it's not good enough to remain on Wikipedia, it's not good enough for a bunch of us on here.  In the case of pirate/bootleg stuff, even saying that you know whatever because you spoke to the source of that stuff but can't divulge who it is per your promise to them is more than you've been putting out there as far as verification of your statements.  So, unless you're willing to back up disputed claims properly, yes, it absolutely does carry all the weight of "my uncle works at Nintendo."  And hey, that's not necessarily always a bad thing, because some kids' uncles really did work at Nintendo.  They just had to prove it to the kids who didn't believe them.

I've learnt long ago that it doesn't matter what the sources are, popular opinion will always trump unpopular fact. We've seen this countless times, even in the realm of game collecting / documentation. 

Historians should try to look at matters objectively, leaving their own personal baggage at the door. If you read the first volume of Family Bits that I wrote, you would see that I attempted to be as objective as possible, even when wading through tons of games that either weren't to my taste or outright sucked. 

I've had discussions / arguments with some top gaming historians about the terminology used to refer to the games being made over here in Taiwan and other parts of Asia (I'm referring to non-infringing items), and the answer I got was something along the lines of "Well the current terms aren't accurate, but it's what people (i.e. westerners) use to refer to the items", maybe tacking on the end "and I haven't thought about a better term for them". Such bias isn't something that should be promulgated by a historian.

Similar situation with some "scholars" on the topic just doing lazy research on similar topics. 

I guess my point is, in terms of gaming historians, there is a TON of shocking things that occur from what folks would consider top tier folks. As for myself personally, I have sources documented, pages marked and referenced, hardware and software categorized and ready to check and verify, others who I can ask to cross reference things, etc.

That said, I'm not going to be digging through tens of dozens of forum posts just to pull up a fact about whether a FB2 cartridge was made or not, just for the sake of showing you it exists on this thread, and the information I DID provide allowed one to track it down if they were curious about it.