Decoupling the NES from the Famicom

[fcgamer | 4,833]

8 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

I referred specifically to video games, not Asia as a whole.  Great, you're more even keeled when it comes to other aspects of Asian culture, but it doesn't stop you from dropping turds all over Western systems, games, etc. constantly, all the while praising the Asian ones.

You'll never hear me dropping turds over western RPGs

[fcgamer | 4,833]

13 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

I think the wave of people who turned their backs on the toploading NES in preference to the toaster's native AV out once playing via RF adapter became gauche tells a different story.  Once things like boiling the 72 pin connector and the Blinking Light Win kind of sealed the deal on the mass migration you're talking about.  People will still have their own opinions about whichever system they prefer, but the days of the toaster NES being a pariah because of the 72-pin connector being unreliable are long gone.

This might be so, but my point still stands: from a design perspective, the two top loading machines and the original style Famicom are better than the toaster NES. The love for the toaster NES's design is based on nostalgia alone. 

[fcgamer | 4,833]

15 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

I referred specifically to video games, not Asia as a whole.  Great, you're more even keeled when it comes to other aspects of Asian culture, but it doesn't stop you from dropping turds all over Western systems, games, etc. constantly, all the while praising the Asian ones.

I think the wave of people who turned their backs on the toploading NES in preference to the toaster's native AV out once playing via RF adapter became gauche tells a different story.  Once things like boiling the 72 pin connector and the Blinking Light Win kind of sealed the deal on the mass migration you're talking about.  People will still have their own opinions about whichever system they prefer, but the days of the toaster NES being a pariah because of the 72-pin connector being unreliable are long gone.

Basically, yeah.  And as for those "wonky computer ports?"  Did you ever stop and look at who published them?  Sure as heck wasn't Western developers.  Remember how FCI shat out all the AD&D games, and the Ultimas?  Guess what, they're Asian!  While FCI itself was headquartered in New York, the staff was Asian, and the company was owned and operated by Fuji, straight out of Japan!  Before spending all your time complaining about what turds the whole US-exclusive library was, spend some more time looking at who actually made those games.  Pool of Radiance, one of my favorite PC games of all time, was ported by Marionette, a Japanese company, then published in Japan by Pony Canyon and in the US by FCI (another Japanese company, just in American clothes).  If the US-exclusive library is the cesspool that you claim it is, it was made so by Nintendo of Japan and many non-Western developers and publishers.  In that light, your grand desire to separate the two libraries comes off more of you trying to wash off guilt or a dirty little secret versus any altruistic, unbiased reasons you might claim.

Oh, many of those games came out in Japan too, they weren't exclusives. I'm talking about the exclusives, and you know that. 

[fcgamer | 4,833]

17 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

In that light, your grand desire to separate the two libraries comes off more of you trying to wash off guilt or a dirty little secret

Washing off guilt of a dirty little secret regarding games that were released on both sides of the pond, in both markets? That doesn't even make sense, that was never the argument at all, rather something you just came up with now. 

The conversation was about the exclusives, IIRC.

[Gloves | 12,051]

29 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Oh, many of those games came out in Japan too, they weren't exclusives. I'm talking about the exclusives, and you know that. 

Yeah @darkchylde28, like Mahjong, Mahjong, Mahjong, and lest we forget Mahjong! 

[the_wizard_666 | 1,329]

17 minutes ago, Gloves said:

Yeah @darkchylde28, like Mahjong, Mahjong, Mahjong, and lest we forget Mahjong! 

You forgot Pachinko, Pachinko, and even more Pachinko

 

[fcgamer | 4,833]

17 minutes ago, Gloves said:

Yeah @darkchylde28, like Mahjong, Mahjong, Mahjong, and lest we forget Mahjong! 

I like the concept of mahjong.

[the_wizard_666 | 1,329]

5 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

I like the concept of mahjong.

There's nothing inherently wrong with mahjong.  Or pachinko for that matter.  They're just completely unknown on this side of the Pacific.  I think the equivalent NA releases to that sort of thing would be the game show and board game conversions.  We got probably about the same number combined as the Famicom got Mahjong/Pachinko releases (though that's purely speculative and I have not done any research into this for confirmation).

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

1 hour ago, fcgamer said:

You'll never hear me dropping turds over western RPGs

Really?

1 hour ago, fcgamer said:

The rest of the conclusions just came later. Lots of AAA titles with tons of add-ons and peripherals really brings the one machine to life, and is IMO > than lack of add-ons and a library made up of mediocre wonky ports of computer games. But you're right, that's just me and my opinion, and it must just be some ploy to shit all over the NES in an unfair manner. 

So, what computer games were ported to the NES?  A lot of RPGs.  And a lot of Western RPGs.  And overall, it was Japanese developers and publishers who were dumping "mediocre wonky ports of computer games" onto the platform.  Behold:

Ultima 3 - Publisher: FCI (JP), Developer: Newtopia Planning (JP) & Softhans (JP)
Ultima 4 - Publisher: FCI (JP), Developer: Newtopia Planning (JP)
Ultima 5 - Publisher: FCI (JP), Developer: Origin (US) [Who were pissed at how the other two games were handled]
The Bard's Tale - Publisher: FCI (JP), Atelier Double (JP)
Pool of Radiance - Publisher: FCI (JP), Developer: Marionette (JP)
Might & Magic - Publisher: American Sammy (US) [Subsidiary of Sammy (JP)], Developer: LOZC G. Amusements (JP)
Wizardry - Publisher: Nexoft (US), Developer: Game Studio (JP)
Wizardry II - Publisher: Ascii (JP), Developer: Game Studio (JP)
Prince of Persia - Publisher: Virgin Games (UK), Developer: MotiveTime (UK)
Lemmings - Publisher: Sunsoft (JP), Developer: Ocean (UK)
Heroes of the Lance - Publisher: FCI (JP), Developer: Natsume (JP)
Hillsfar - Publisher: FCI (JP), Developer: Crosstalk (JP)
Dragonstrike - Publisher: FCI (JP), Developer: Westwood Associates (US)
Archon - Publisher: Activision (US), Developer: Bullet-Proof Software (JP)
Bandit Kings of Ancient China - Publisher: Koei (JP), Developer: Koei (JP)
Battle Chess - Publisher: Data East (JP), Developer: Beam Software (AU)
California Games - Publisher: Milton Bradley (US), Developer: Rare (UK)
Castlequest - Publisher: Nexoft (US), Developer: Ascii (JP)
Caveman Games - Publisher: Data East (JP), Developer: Painting By Numbers (UK)
Chessmaster - Publisher: Hi-Tech (US), Developer: Software Toolworks (US)
Deja Vu - Publisher: Kemco/Seika (JP), Developer: Kemco (JP)
F-15 Strike Eagle - Publisher: MicroProse (US), Developer: MicroProse (US)
F-117A Stealth Fighter - Publisher: MicroProse (US), Developer: MicroProse (US)
Gemfire - Publisher: Koei (JP), Developer: Koei (JP)
Genghis Khan - Publisher: Koei (JP), Developer: Koei (JP)
The Immortal - Publisher: Electronic Arts (US), Developer: Sandcastle (??)
King's Quest V - Publisher: Konami (JP), Developer: Novotrade International (HU)
L'Empereur - Publisher: Koei (JP), Developer: Koei (JP)
Maniac Mansion - Publisher: Jaleco (JP), Developer: Lucasfilm (US)
Metal Gear - Publisher: Ultra (JP), Developer: Konami (JP)
Nobunaga's Ambition - Publisher: Koei (JP), Developer: Koei (JP)
Nobunaga's Ambition II - Publisher: Koei (JP), Developer: Koei (JP)
North & South - Publisher: Kemco/Seika (JP), Developer: Kemco (JP)
Overlord - Publisher: Virgin Games (UK), Developer: Probe Software (US)
Pirates! - Publisher: Ultra (JP), Developer: Rare (UK)
Romance of the Three Kingdoms - Publisher: Koei (JP), Developer: Koei (JP)
Romance of the Three Kingdoms II - Publisher: Koei (JP), Developer: Koei (JP)
Shadowgate - Publisher: Kemco/Seika (JP), Developer: Kemco (JP)
Tombs & Treasure - Publisher: Infocom (US), Developer: Compile (JP)
Uncharted Waters - Publisher: Koei (JP), Developer: Koei (JP)
Uninvited - Publisher: Kemco/Seika (JP), Developer: Kemco (JP)

Edited January 13, 2023 by darkchylde28

[Tulpa | 3,594]

17 minutes ago, the_wizard_666 said:

 We got probably about the same number combined as the Famicom got Mahjong/Pachinko releases (though that's purely speculative and I have not done any research into this for confirmation).

Well, we had four versions of Jeopardy, and four versions of Wheel of Fortune, though they all had different questions and puzzles, so they're essentially expansions of the same game.

Gameshow games:

Jeopardy x4

Wheel of Fortune x4

Double Dare

Hollywood Squares

Family Feud

Remote Control

Win, Lose, or Draw

Classic Concentration

Fun House

 

Board games:

Pictionary

Chessmaster

Battle Chess

Monopoly

Othello

Battleship

Spot: the Video Game (basically a dumbed down version of Go)

 

Does Archon and Anticipation count, even though they don't have IRL counterparts? Or Bible Buffet? I mean, that's essentially The Game of Life with more Jesus.

 

 

Edited January 13, 2023 by Tulpa

[Gloves | 12,051]

23 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

I like the concept of mahjong.

Then boy do I have the console for you!

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

1 hour ago, fcgamer said:

This might be so, but my point still stands: from a design perspective, the two top loading machines and the original style Famicom are better than the toaster NES. The love for the toaster NES's design is based on nostalgia alone. 

The concept of the vertical socket is less problematic, and better in a design sense when looked at that way.  However, the design itself is liked by all sorts of people for all sorts of reasons, not just nostalgia.  Honestly, the original Famicom, to me, looks like a junky toy that you'd get in a dime machine back in the day and lose or break the next day.  Perhaps the design of the cartridge slot was better thought out than on the original NES, but boy, was it not a looker.

Edit: And the original NES had AV out by default, something the Famicom and later toploading NES lacked without modification.  The AV Famicom got the best of both worlds there, with both a top loading cartridge slot and native AV out.  However, while it looked better than the original Famicom did, I still don't like the design as much as the original NES, and not "just because of nostalgia."  I love the controllers on the second NES better than the originals, but not so much the look of the system itself.

1 hour ago, fcgamer said:

Oh, many of those games came out in Japan too, they weren't exclusives. I'm talking about the exclusives, and you know that. 

And I don't know what the exclusives are.  Spell that out for me.

1 hour ago, fcgamer said:

Washing off guilt of a dirty little secret regarding games that were released on both sides of the pond, in both markets? That doesn't even make sense, that was never the argument at all, rather something you just came up with now. 

The conversation was about the exclusives, IIRC.

Oh good lord, how many times are you going to separately reply to a single post of mine?  lol

Washing off the guilt of your beloved Japanese publishers and developers pushing out shit bombs that you conveniently push to the back of the conversation when the topic of how great the Famicom comes up (which, with you, is about every third breath).  I'd wager there's just as much shit clogging up the Famicom library as there is the US NES library, if not more, seeing as they had an additional 300-400 titles in that library.  Most of us will just never know or be able to confirm it because we don't speak the language.

Edited January 13, 2023 by darkchylde28

[fcgamer | 4,833]

16 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

Really?

So, what computer games were ported to the NES?  A lot of RPGs.  And a lot of Western RPGs.  And overall, it was Japanese developers and publishers who were dumping "mediocre wonky ports of computer games" onto the platform.  Behold:

Ultima 3 - Publisher: FCI (JP), Developer: Newtopia Planning (JP) & Softhans (JP)
Ultima 4 - Publisher: FCI (JP), Developer: Newtopia Planning (JP)
Ultima 5 - Publisher: FCI (JP), Developer: Origin (US) [Who were pissed at how the other two games were handled]
The Bard's Tale - Publisher: FCI (JP), Atelier Double (JP)
Pool of Radiance - Publisher: FCI (JP), Developer: Marionette (JP)
Might & Magic - Publisher: American Sammy (US) [Subsidiary of Sammy (JP)], Developer: LOZC G. Amusements (JP)
Wizardry - Publisher: Nexoft (US), Developer: Game Studio (JP)
Wizardry II - Publisher: Ascii (JP), Developer: Game Studio (JP)
Prince of Persia - Publisher: Virgin Games (UK), Developer: MotiveTime (UK)
Lemmings - Publisher: Sunsoft (JP), Developer: Ocean (UK)
Heroes of the Lance - Publisher: FCI (JP), Developer: Natsume (JP)
Hillsfar - Publisher: FCI (JP), Developer: Crosstalk (JP)
Dragonstrike - Publisher: FCI (JP), Developer: Westwood Associates (US)
Archon - Publisher: Activision (US), Developer: Bullet-Proof Software (JP)
Bandit Kings of Ancient China - Publisher: Koei (JP), Developer: Koei (JP)
Battle Chess - Publisher: Data East (JP), Developer: Beam Software (AU)
California Games - Publisher: Milton Bradley (US), Developer: Rare (UK)
Castlequest - Publisher: Nexoft (US), Developer: Ascii (JP)
Caveman Games - Publisher: Data East (JP), Developer: Painting By Numbers (UK)
Chessmaster - Publisher: Hi-Tech (US), Developer: Software Toolworks (US)
Deja Vu - Publisher: Kemco/Seika (JP), Developer: Kemco (JP)
F-15 Strike Eagle - Publisher: MicroProse (US), Developer: MicroProse (US)
F-117A Stealth Fighter - Publisher: MicroProse (US), Developer: MicroProse (US)
Gemfire - Publisher: Koei (JP), Developer: Koei (JP)
Genghis Khan - Publisher: Koei (JP), Developer: Koei (JP)
The Immortal - Publisher: Electronic Arts (US), Developer: Sandcastle (??)
King's Quest V - Publisher: Konami (JP), Developer: Novotrade International (HU)
L'Empereur - Publisher: Koei (JP), Developer: Koei (JP)
Maniac Mansion - Publisher: Jaleco (JP), Developer: Lucasfilm (US)
Metal Gear - Publisher: Ultra (JP), Developer: Konami (JP)
Nobunaga's Ambition - Publisher: Koei (JP), Developer: Koei (JP)
Nobunaga's Ambition II - Publisher: Koei (JP), Developer: Koei (JP)
North & South - Publisher: Kemco/Seika (JP), Developer: Kemco (JP)
Overlord - Publisher: Virgin Games (UK), Developer: Probe Software (US)
Pirates! - Publisher: Ultra (JP), Developer: Rare (UK)
Romance of the Three Kingdoms - Publisher: Koei (JP), Developer: Koei (JP)
Romance of the Three Kingdoms II - Publisher: Koei (JP), Developer: Koei (JP)
Shadowgate - Publisher: Kemco/Seika (JP), Developer: Kemco (JP)
Tombs & Treasure - Publisher: Infocom (US), Developer: Compile (JP)
Uncharted Waters - Publisher: Koei (JP), Developer: Koei (JP)
Uninvited - Publisher: Kemco/Seika (JP), Developer: Kemco (JP)

Well we are talking about exclusives, and there's still a ton of exclusives on that list so I was correct in my statement 

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

2 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Well we are talking about exclusives, and there's still a ton of exclusives on that list so I was correct in my statement 

And which ones are exclusives?  And who developed and published them?

There's are literally 16 US publishers and developers in that list--COMBINED.  The UK appeared 7 times, Australia and Hungary appeared 1 time, and there was one developer (Sandcastle) who I was totally unable to find any country of original details for.

How many times does Japan appear?  57 times.

What does this tell us?  Well, one country, far more than any other, is responsible for the computer game ports on this list.  And if it's such a horrendous shitshow?  Japan gets the lion's share of the blame.

(Note, my math isn't off, I'm counting "American Sammy" under the Japan category since it's literally the American division of Sammy, a wholly Japanese corporation, who did exactly what their parent company told them to do, just like Nintendo of America & Nintendo.)

[fcgamer | 4,833]

6 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

And which ones are exclusives?  And who developed and published them?

There's are literally 16 US publishers and developers in that list--COMBINED.  The UK appeared 7 times, Australia and Hungary appeared 1 time, and there was one developer (Sandcastle) who I was totally unable to find any country of original details for.

How many times does Japan appear?  57 times.

What does this tell us?  Well, one country, far more than any other, is responsible for the computer game ports on this list.  And if it's such a horrendous shitshow?  Japan gets the lion's share of the blame.

(Note, my math isn't off, I'm counting "American Sammy" under the Japan category since it's literally the American division of Sammy, a wholly Japanese corporation, who did exactly what their parent company told them to do, just like Nintendo of America & Nintendo.)

Are you using the nes exclusives list I posted?

[JamesRobot | 5,883]

Just checking in.  Yep, it's still going.  Carry on.

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

50 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Are you using the nes exclusives list I posted?

Nope.  No idea where that is.  I checked the first three pages of this thread, couldn't find it, and am taking a page from your book and refusing to dig for details.  I'll let you do it for me. 

[fcgamer | 4,833]

25 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

Nope.  No idea where that is.  I checked the first three pages of this thread, couldn't find it, and am taking a page from your book and refusing to dig for details.  I'll let you do it for me. 

That's fine, I'll repost it later. 

[Dr. Morbis | 2,105]

4 hours ago, fcgamer said:

Historians should try to look at matters objectively, leaving their own personal baggage at the door.

I find this statement of yours to be outrageously hypocritical in light of the original arguments you made regarding how the NES library sucks balls to such a degree that it would be hard for us to even find a single exclusive game that was worth playing...

[fcgamer | 4,833]

2 hours ago, Dr. Morbis said:

I find this statement of yours to be outrageously hypocritical in light of the original arguments you made regarding how the NES library sucks balls to such a degree that it would be hard for us to even find a single exclusive game that was worth playing...

I would totally agree with you aside from the fact that we are just discussing and debating matters on a public forum for the sake of discussion, debate, and entertainment. If I were posting said statements in a publication or whilst acting under the name of a historical society, it would be a totally different situation. 

From what you posted above, it would mean that I would never be able to write a game review or share my thoughts on a single game, ever, positive or negative. Um yeah, how about no. 

No  need for you to act ridiculous. :P

[the_wizard_666 | 1,329]

1 hour ago, fcgamer said:

I would totally agree with you aside from the fact that we are just discussing and debating matters on a public forum for the sake of discussion, debate, and entertainment. If I were posting said statements in a publication or whilst acting under the name of a historical society, it would be a totally different situation. 

Any historian worth his salt would not colour any debate with their personal opinions, they would stick to facts wherever possible, offering speculation only in the absence of evidence, with the goal of formulating a plausible theory, and would be very careful to make sure that such speculation was presented as such.  Most of what you present is conjecture, opinions and hyperbole, which makes it hard to take you seriously as a scholar.  And that's a shame, because you're extremely passionate about it.  

[Gaia Gensouki | 1,079]

A few pages ago I and some other users posted lists of US exclusive games that are actually decent, if not even great (like StarTropics 1 and 2). But you conveniently glossed over this and still continue to put down the NES library. And when I wrote my list, I didn't even have much of a stake in there since I'm not from the US. So it's not like there was national pride involved when choosing games for my list. Instead I played them for the NES completions thread and came to my own conclusions.

A popular opinion in Japan seems to be that Western games are shit, 洋ゲーくそげー, but when you look at the stuff with an open mind you can still find great stuff. And vice versa you'll find plenty of mediocre if not bad games on the other side of the pool. Mahjong and Pachinko have been mentioned already, but let's not forget the millions of horse racing/betting games and Game of Life adaptations (although they're not necessarily bad, but there's still so many of them. Almost like sports games in the west). I think even Mario and Dragon Quest had some. They somehow really love this kind of game that it crept its way into other media as well:

And on a side note: whether the NES or Famicom library are good or bad doesn't change that both are the same console, just with regional variants, which were plenty common in those days.

[fcgamer | 4,833]

25 minutes ago, the_wizard_666 said:

Any historian worth his salt would not colour any debate with their personal opinions, they would stick to facts wherever possible, offering speculation only in the absence of evidence, with the goal of formulating a plausible theory, and would be very careful to make sure that such speculation was presented as such.  Most of what you present is conjecture, opinions and hyperbole, which makes it hard to take you seriously as a scholar.  And that's a shame, because you're extremely passionate about it.  

If you go back and read the first post in the thread, it presents itself as a thread made for entertainment, and the thread did just that, bringing about a lot of good information to the table from all parties involved. I am sorry if you took it too seriously.

On another note (and this has come up a lot over the past few years), you and everyone else need to learn to separate between the persona / character fcgamer and the author Dave (last name not posted for obvious reasons). The one is a person, the other a character.

 

Edited January 13, 2023 by fcgamer

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

2 hours ago, fcgamer said:

If you go back and read the first post in the thread, it presents itself as a thread made for entertainment, and the thread did just that, bringing about a lot of good information to the table from all parties involved. I am sorry if you took it too seriously.

On another note (and this has come up a lot over the past few years), you and everyone else need to learn to separate between the persona / character fcgamer and the author Dave (last name not posted for obvious reasons). The one is a person, the other a character.

My, isn't that convenient.  When backed into a corner with facts and figures, and called out for presenting opinions as fact and failing to provide (and refusing to provide) supporting citations, sources, etc. for such claims, it's suddenly all a joke, and you're a character, and we all just don't understand and take it too seriously.

Yeah, ok.  I used the exact same sort of backing up tactics to save face amidst constant flame wars on local BBSes when I was 15, but I understand, it's totally different here, and you, the real you, would never do, or condone such things.  Even though this is repetitive and constant on your part.  Let me guess, because having a library of literally thousands of games doesn't give you enough to entertain yourself, right? 

If you're hoping that folks will walk away from this "explanation" thinking, "Oh, that fcgamer, what a scamp!  What a character!  He really got us that time," I'm fairly certain you'll be left wanting, as I, and I imagine many others, will seriously call into doubt the legitimacy of the statement you're trying to make here.  Because on the long, long, long shot that it's actually true, while all the rest of us have been having honest interactions with one another, building relationships, etc., you've been playing make believe, all while claiming the exact opposite...right up until now (unless I've somehow missed more of these "revelations").

As I pointed out above, more than a little sourly and sarcastically, this all drips of a poor attempt to save face and shirk responsibility for the mess that you seem to have gotten yourself into here.  If I'm right, you're doing far more harm to your reputation and relationships (and hope for relationships) than if you just took it on the chin, rolled with the punches, and moved on.

[fcgamer | 4,833]

51 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

If you're hoping that folks will walk away from this "explanation" thinking, "Oh, that fcgamer, what a scamp!  What a character!  He really got us that time," I'm fairly certain you'll be left wanting, as I, and I imagine many others, will seriously call into doubt the legitimacy of the statement you're trying to make here.  Because on the long, long, long shot that it's actually true, while all the rest of us have been having honest interactions with one another, building relationships, etc., you've been playing make believe, all while claiming the exact opposite...right up until now (unless I've somehow missed more of these "revelations").

There was a thread awhile back (maybe a year or so ago) where someone asked how everyone was in real life compared to how they acted on the forums; in it, myself and (IIRC JosephPhleo?) both agreed that our online personality / handle was more of a persona or a character, than an actuality, and this is something I also have maintained elsewhere, hence why at the end of the night I just leave the forum stuff as it happens, and I don't hold grudges or harbor personal ill will towards people here. You are fine to draw your own conclusions, and I'll be fine playing the heel and producing hot takes and radical opinions come tomorrow or next week or whenever I get on again, for the sake of discussion and debate.

In actuality I rarely play games, and I generally try to do most of my internet stuff during the day. So it's then that I need something to entertain me, during lunch or whenever.