How much do you tip?

[a3quit4s | 4,344]

A bartender is someone you always tip at least a buck a drink for? Am I taking crazy pills here? Shit I don’t even drink anymore and when I order water I leave a tip lmao

Edited August 21 by a3quit4s

[Mega Tank | 1,093]

9 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

It's not really slavery if we're paying them and they can quit at any time. It might be garbage pay, but that's the free market and all. 

Don't get me wrong, I think everyone should be paid a living wage, but we would need further regulation and a significant portion of the US thinks we're overregulated as is. 

Thank you.

Not to mention, some of these drivers are doing it because they want to "work on their own time and make their own schedule." It's a luxury to be able to decide when to clock in and clock out. Some people do it full time and make a decent living. Some work it part time to make some extra money. Everyone is free to stop using the platform at anytime and get another job.

Also, if the driver for Uber/Eats/Instacart etc. does not match the person on the profile, not only is it a no tip, it's an automatic report for the delivery. I'm not sure how things are around you all, but in some cases, people who can't get on these apps for whatever reason, will sometimes pay to use profiles or borrow profiles to make money because they were kicked off or can't gain approval to be on the platform.

[final fight cd | 227]

if the service is bad....they ain't getting jack shit from me.  if the service is great the tip may be 50% or more. the only time i will tip a take out order is if i frequent the place often; it is my way of saying, "ya da man. keep up the good work!"

[Hammerfestus | 4,100]

2 hours ago, a3quit4s said:

A bartender is someone you always tip at least a buck a drink for? Am I taking crazy pills here? Shit I don’t even drink anymore and when I order water I leave a tip lmao

In recent years I‘ve had concerns regarding the old dollar per drink standard.   Inflation and stuff.  It’s not 2005 any more. But how much more?   For a bit I was settled on 1.50 but now I usually go $2 because the ease of math is worth the pocket change to me I think.   Lately though I’ve been leaning towards %ing it and don’t worry about it.   Usually it’s because I’m only drinking in a situation that involves a meal too. I’ll pad the percent a bit though taking into account bar tender custom.

[Brickman | 4,202]

2 hours ago, Mega Tank said:

Thank you.

Not to mention, some of these drivers are doing it because they want to "work on their own time and make their own schedule." It's a luxury to be able to decide when to clock in and clock out. Some people do it full time and make a decent living. Some work it part time to make some extra money. Everyone is free to stop using the platform at anytime and get another job.

Also, if the driver for Uber/Eats/Instacart etc. does not match the person on the profile, not only is it a no tip, it's an automatic report for the delivery. I'm not sure how things are around you all, but in some cases, people who can't get on these apps for whatever reason, will sometimes pay to use profiles or borrow profiles to make money because they were kicked off or can't gain approval to be on the platform.

That’s no excuse for drivers making below minimum wage. Their wage shouldn’t be dependent on looks, racism or any other weird reason someone who uses their service decides.

It’s wild to read people actively defending the practice of their own citizens getting paid a low wage, that is below a living wage, in this thread. Everyone loses when people aren’t being paid a liveable wage.

You can do all the mental gymnastics and excuses like “they get flexibility!” you like but the only people winning in that situation are the people at the top that are scraping the majority of the pay and paying the drivers peanuts. 

It might not be slavery in the traditional sense but it’s definitely exploiting people and not allowing them to have a liveable wage.

[Mega Tank | 1,093]

9 minutes ago, Brickman said:

That’s no excuse for drivers making below minimum wage. Their wage shouldn’t be dependent on looks, racism or any other weird reason someone who uses their service decides.

It’s wild to read people actively defending the practice of their own citizens getting paid a low wage, that is below a living wage, in this thread. Everyone loses when people aren’t being paid a liveable wage.

You can do all the mental gymnastics and excuses like “they get flexibility!” you like but the only people winning in that situation are the people at the top that are scraping the majority of the pay and paying the drivers peanuts. 

It might not be slavery in the traditional sense but it’s definitely exploiting people and not allowing them to have a liveable wage.

These platforms are supposed to be side jobs, not full time gigs. Either way, some people make very good money off it. There's so many variables that come into play and some are the fault of the driver. Such as being picky about trips they accept.

Again, these platforms offer flexibility that other traditional jobs don't. It's an opportunity to make extra income and they're not meant to be the only source of income. Good service should be rewarded. Plain and simple.

I'm not sure how these jobs pay where you live, but either way, if a job isn't paying the bills, it's time to move on, no matter what you do.

[Tulpa | 3,704]

35 minutes ago, Brickman said:

That’s no excuse for drivers making below minimum wage. Their wage shouldn’t be dependent on looks, racism or any other weird reason someone who uses their service decides.

It’s wild to read people actively defending the practice of their own citizens getting paid a low wage, that is below a living wage, in this thread. Everyone loses when people aren’t being paid a liveable wage.

 

I get what you're saying, but the food delivery (and most gig economy workers) aren't actually employees of whatever platform. They're freelancers, i.e., self-employed. They don't actually work for Uber/Doordash/Getyourfoodtoyourporch.com. They're an independent contractor. So whatever they make is based on whatever they bring in doing deliveries.

And everyone who does these types of deliveries goes into this knowing this is the arrangement. It's not like they're pressed into service like the old Royal Navy.

And Mega Tank brings up a good point. It's really no different than running an Etsy store or having a profile on Fiverr or Upworks. You can making a living wage on those platforms, but nowhere does it say you're guaranteed one. 

 

Edited August 22 by Tulpa

[Brickman | 4,202]

26 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

I get what you're saying, but the food delivery (and most gig economy workers) aren't actually employees of whatever platform. They're freelancers, i.e., self-employed. They don't actually work for Uber/Doordash/Getyourfoodtoyourporch.com. They're an independent contractor. So whatever they make is based on whatever they bring in doing deliveries.

And everyone who does these types of deliveries goes into this knowing this is the arrangement. It's not like they're pressed into service like the old Royal Navy.

And Mega Tank brings up a good point. It's really no different than running an Etsy store or having a profile on Fiverr or Upworks. You can making a living wage on those platforms, but nowhere does it say you're guaranteed one. 

 

Well thankfully countries are waking up to the American "gig worker" con and closing these loop holes. Like I said earlier, Australia is looking to close these ridiculous cons soon and the UK did it quiet a while ago.

You don't even realise it but Uber and the like have convinced you that their workers aren't real workers and therefore don't deserve sick pay, pension, holiday pay just so they can line their pockets while paying their workers a below minimum wage. They've literally taken workers rights away and wrapped it up in some fancy language like "gig worker". You can't tell me that a driver doing a 38 hour shift a week doesn't deserve the benefits that a normal worker in a factory or office gets. 

Comparing an uber taxi driver to an Etsy seller is laughable, so I'll just not even bother replying to that 

[Tulpa | 3,704]

44 minutes ago, Brickman said:

You don't even realise it but Uber and the like have convinced you that their workers aren't real workers

I do realize that we have freelancers in the US economy. We've always had them. They're real workers, but they're not employees of a company.

I don't know how many times to state it, but they were never hired by Ubereats/Doordash/etc., so they are not employees. They downloaded an app. Show me an instance where you download an app on your phone and suddenly you're a fulltime employee.

I do hiring as part of my job, and there's a whole onboarding process, background checks, etc, and my employees get minimum wage, benefits, etc. Uber and the like do none of that onboarding, because they're not hiring the people that drive. It's freelance. They're just using the app.

They have to work under the same conditions as all other freelancers. Copywriting, session musicians, etc., all work under the same conditions, and no one complains about them. If Uber isn't paying enough, you can always find a gig on Fiverr that does.

44 minutes ago, Brickman said:

They've literally taken workers rights away and wrapped it up in some fancy language like "gig worker".

Those companies did not invent the word "gig worker." They don't even use the term.

They use the term freelancer, because that's what they are. It's always been freelance work.

44 minutes ago, Brickman said:

Comparing an uber taxi driver to an Etsy seller is laughable, so I'll just not even bother replying to that 

Why not? It's the same thing when you get down to it. Plenty of people making their living selling knickknacks on Etsy.

Edited August 22 by Tulpa

[Brickman | 4,202]

28 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

I do realize that we have freelancers in the US economy. We've always had them. They're real workers, but they're not employees of a company.

I don't know how many times to state it, but they were never hired by Ubereats/Doordash/etc., so they are not employees. They downloaded an app. Show me an instance where you download an app on your phone and suddenly you're a fulltime employee.

I do hiring as part of my job, and there's a whole onboarding process, background checks, etc, and my employees get minimum wage, benefits, etc. Uber and the like do none of that onboarding, because they're not hiring the people that drive. It's freelance. They're just using the app.

They have to work under the same conditions as all other freelancers. Copywriting, session musicians, etc., all work under the same conditions, and no one complains about them. If Uber isn't paying enough, you can always find a gig on Fiverr that does.

Those companies did not invent the word "gig worker." They don't even use the term.

They use the term freelancer, because that's what they are. It's always been freelance work.

Why not? It's the same thing when you get down to it. Plenty of people making their living selling knickknacks on Etsy.

If that's your attitude then it's already too late and things will probably never change in America because creating a working poor seems to be an ok thing from the sounds of some of the comments here. Sorry you have to live with such horrible working conditions with workers rights stripped to the bone, but it seems like a lot of you are ok with it as long as you can get your uber eats at a cheap price  

Thankfully a lot of other developed nations around the world are seeing the scam and are starting to make Uber and others play ball and closing these loop holes. 

[fcgamer | 5,006]

11 minutes ago, Brickman said:

If that's your attitude then it's already too late and things will probably never change in America because creating a working poor seems to be an ok thing from the sounds of some of the comments here. Sorry you have to live with such horrible working conditions with workers rights stripped to the bone, but it seems like a lot of you are ok with it as long as you can get your uber eats at a cheap price  

Thankfully a lot of other developed nations around the world are seeing the scam and are starting to make Uber and others play ball and closing these loop holes. 

https://www.asiainsurancereview.com/News/View-NewsLetter-Article?id=49425&Type=eDaily

Looks like in Taiwan delivery services need to insure their drivers.

[Tulpa | 3,704]

21 minutes ago, Brickman said:

If that's your attitude then it's already too late and things will probably never change in America because creating a working poor seems to be an ok thing from the sounds of some of the comments here. 

You're missing the point, or you don't understand the nature of freelance work.

And I'm not advocating a working poor. In fact, I'm in favor of Universal Basic Income.

But regulating Uber and the other app based services is a recipe for disaster, because it affects all other freelance work, ones who don't want to become employees because they make plenty doing their work, but if the companies had to hire them as employees, the work would dry up.

How do I know this will happen? I've seen it happen with California's Assembly Bill 5. No one wanted that bill, but it got passed and now a lot of people are out of work.

21 minutes ago, Brickman said:

Thankfully a lot of other developed nations around the world are seeing the scam and are starting to make Uber and others play ball and closing these loop holes. 

Don't worry, I'm sure it'll end up like what California tried and have a lot of unintended consequences.

Don't say I didn't warn you.

Edited August 22 by Tulpa

[Brickman | 4,202]

22 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

You're missing the point, or you don't understand the nature of freelance work.

And I'm not advocating a working poor. In fact, I'm in favor of Universal Basic Income.

But regulating Uber and the other app based services is a recipe for disaster, because it affects all other freelance work, ones who don't want to become employees because they make plenty doing their work, but if the companies had to hire them as employees, the work would dry up.

How do I know this will happen? I've seen it happen with California's Assembly Bill 5. No one wanted that bill, but it got passed and now a lot of people are out of work.

Don't worry, I'm sure it'll end up like what California tried and have a lot of unintended consequences.

Don't say I didn't warn you.

Maybe you don't understand the legislation or maybe it's different in California.

The minimum wage doesn't mean that all of a sudden someone working 2 hours a week gets paid a full wage and benefits. It means that for example the minimum wage is $20 and someone works a 30min ride they are guaranteed $10 for that 30mins plus pension. It means that if someone only earned $8 for that 30mins then uber would top up with $2 out of their own pocket plus pension (11.5% for Australian's).

26 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

Don't worry, I'm sure it'll end up like what California tried and have a lot of unintended consequences.

Don't say I didn't warn you.

Sorry to break it to you but uber are already doing it in the UK and Europe countries and have been for a while, they top up drivers who don't make the minimum wage. You're getting absolutely fleeced and sold a lie in order to strip US workers rights  It's the same as your tipping culture. You're being screwed over and you don't even see it. I don't think the US ever have any hope of having a UBI if they can't even sort out their tipping and gig worker mess.

At least the Canadian's (like Gloves and Code Monkey) seem to have their heads screwed on straight and can see the scam they're being sold 

[Tulpa | 3,704]

9 minutes ago, Brickman said:

Maybe you don't understand the legislation or maybe it's different in California.

Sorry to break it to you but uber are already doing it in the UK and Europe countries and have been for a while, they top up drivers who don't make the minimum wage. You're getting absolutely fleeced and sold a lie in order to strip US workers rights  It's the same as your tipping culture. You're being screwed over and you don't even see it. I don't think the US ever have any hope of having a UBI if they can't even sort out their tipping and gig worker mess.

 

No, I understand the legislation, and it worked in California similar to the UK and Europe.

And then it all went to shit. Because the companies found ways around it. And the freelancers got screwed. It's coming for the UK at some point.

Like I said, don't say I didn't warn you.

Edited August 22 by Tulpa

[Brickman | 4,202]

18 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

No, I understand the legislation, and it worked in California similar to the UK and Europe.

And then it all went to shit. Because the companies found ways around it. And the freelancers got screwed. It's coming for the UK at some point.

Like I said, don't say I didn't warn you.

You aren’t warning me of anything. It’s working in the UK and Europe. What will happen is that Uber will raise their prices so they can pay people a real wage and people will pay the higher prices because they know people are getting a fair wage or they won’t pay the prices and go get food/catch public transport to their destinations. Uber will either survive or they won’t, isn’t that capitalism?

This is what people from the US never understand. They think it’s ok to pay people dirt just so they can get their cheap meal or get their cheap Uber eats. As long as they’re ok who cares about the rest of society right? Except they don’t realise that if everyone is earning a respectable wage then society as a whole gains and benefits.

You don’t get it so I can’t be bothered going over it anymore. The rest of the developed world seems to have worked it out, hopefully the US will catch on one day.

[guillavoie | 1,227]

54 minutes ago, Brickman said:

At least the Canadian's seem to have their heads screwed on straight and can see the scam they're being sold 

You can be against the tipping culture and still participating in it cause you understand that it is an important part of the wages of waiters etc. Don't get deluded, most people not tipping in US/Canada are doing it mainly for selfish reasons, not because they advocate for changes in society for the betterment of everyone.

[Mega Tank | 1,093]

3 hours ago, Brickman said:

as long as you can get your uber eats at a cheap price  

What? You're completely out of the loop if you think Uber Eats is cheap.

[Mega Tank | 1,093]

2 hours ago, Brickman said:

At least the Canadian's (like Gloves and Code Monkey) seem to have their heads screwed on straight and can see the scam they're being sold 

The ones that don't even tip?

@Code Monkeythinks tipping fifty cents is acceptable. He flips out when he's served food over the wrong shoulder.

Edited August 22 by Mega Tank

[Brickman | 4,202]

3 hours ago, guillavoie said:

You can be against the tipping culture and still participating in it cause you understand that it is an important part of the wages of waiters etc. Don't get deluded, most people not tipping in US/Canada are doing it mainly for selfish reasons, not because they advocate for changes in society for the betterment of everyone.

So what’s your solution? Just go along with the status quo and the people getting abused and underpaid will just one day magically get the wage they deserve ?  
 

2 hours ago, Mega Tank said:

What? You're completely out of the loop if you think Uber Eats is cheap.

I don’t order Uber eats but if it isn’t cheap and drivers are getting paid peanuts below minimum wage then that means Uber is taking it all in. Wow what a great company  

Must be so tough for them not to pay a minimum wage, oh no wait it isn’t because the European’s are receiving minimum wage top ups from Uber themselves  

That would really be hard to see Uber pay out other countries a minimum wage while you guys get fleeced and brain washed into thinking you don’t deserve it.

You guys are totally bonkers. Tanooki is dead on about the hive mind in this thread. 

[fcgamer | 5,006]

27 minutes ago, Brickman said:

So what’s your solution? Just go along with the status quo and the people getting abused and underpaid will just one day magically get the wage they deserve ?  
 

I don’t order Uber eats but if it isn’t cheap and drivers are getting paid peanuts below minimum wage then that means Uber is taking it all in. Wow what a great company  

Must be so tough for them not to pay a minimum wage, oh no wait it isn’t because the European’s are receiving minimum wage top ups from Uber themselves  

That would really be hard to see Uber pay out other countries a minimum wage while you guys get fleeced and brain washed into thinking you don’t deserve it.

You guys are totally bonkers. Tanooki is dead on about the hive mind in this thread. 

They're also failing to look at the restaurant side of things. The restaurants selling on the food delivery apps are making comparatively little as well, but they are almost forced to join the apps to stay competitive with the other restaurants in the city. It's also part of the reason why some of the places offer deals that aren't available in-person.

Although this may seem to be hunky-dory initially, it negatively impacts a lot of the non-chain restaurants. Let's all say goodbye to one of our favorite mom n pops too while we're at it! W00t, and this is what people call progress. Congratulations everyone.

[guillavoie | 1,227]

6 hours ago, Brickman said:

So what’s your solution? Just go along with the status quo and the people getting abused and underpaid will just one day magically get the wage they deserve ? 

That's exactly my point, not tipping is certainly not the 'good' solution as it is. You either go along with it and make tipping wages living wages, or you advocate for laws that will actually change the financial structure of these tipping jobs to normal wage jobs. But, of course, you'll understand that it is not my personal battle as I'm not a waiter (or anything that would make me an expert on wage laws) so I'm not going to pour my personal time into changing the system and instead I'll just leave 15%  tip in restaurants when service is not a disaster, which is such a scarce issue that people actually complaining about this are the joke at this point.

You also need to realize that tipping jobs in US and Canada (like waiter in a restaurant) are not bottom of society jobs, not at all. Waiters in good to excellent restaurants are making a very good living out of their tipping + hourly wages, and the resentment of the people not tipping often come from the idea that these waiters don't deserve more money as they make enough as it is for their 'unskilled job' (which is a false notion in many cases). The very thing that can make their wages insufficient is that every clients stop tipping altogether, which is why I'm pointing out the contradiction in your position of championing living wage jobs while applauding people not tipping in restaurants in countries where it is the norm.

This said, I also agree that there is a lot of problems that go with such tipping wages (and gloves actually raised good arguments on the matter in this thread) and there are valid reasons to contest this practice. But again, whenever tips is no longer required in restaurants also means that upfront cost of menu items will be raised to match the gain in hourly wages of waiters. Also, if tips are no longer at the discretion of the customers, it will mean that you can no longer challenge a poor service with leaving a very low percentage tip, which is ironically what the people not tipping are the most pleased of doing, and to me this illustrates that what many of them really want is to 'have one's cake and eat it too'.

Note : I'm not talking about the Uber drivers subject as I do not personally have enough knowledge about it.

[wongojack | 314]

This is an engaging topic.  I've considered not replying because there's an element going on here that is kind of inflamatory, but the underlying issues are interesting.

Why do some think about "work" and "payment" differently than others?

I'm American, but I've spent a lot of time outside the country.  If I were to oversimplify my entire country but still try to make a useful observation, it would be that Americans are willing to incorporate more risk on both micro and macro economic issues than most other cultures.  The prospect of increased flexibility is simply more important. 

So, on the issue of if a delivery service driver should be classified as an employee and given a full wage, I think most Americans would praise the innovation of creating such an opportunity and be willing to participate out of a sense that "new things create opportunity."  If asked if that opportunity should come along with the safetynet of a regular job, it would probably depend on how the question was asked.  Americans like safety, but they also like things like freedom, mobility, (already mentioned) innovation, and opportunity.  We like these things because we perceive the risk as being worth it.

Again, this is a generalization, but it explains why Americans are willing to accept certain things that others might perceive as obviously not ok.  There is risk in the economy and we actually like that.

A culture often associated with ours on this specific topic is often Hong Kong.  They are also willing to take risks with the possibility that wealth and prosperity are available.

[Brickman | 4,202]

2 hours ago, wongojack said:

This is an engaging topic.  I've considered not replying because there's an element going on here that is kind of inflamatory, but the underlying issues are interesting

I know this is just meant as a blanket statement and you are most likely not directing at anyone but I will reply.

This site is 99% made up of people from the US so it becomes an echo chamber of how right people think their views are with the majority high fiving each others comments and give it a like while putting down any view that might be slightly different, As an outsider it is very hard to give a point of view that challenges that echo chamber. All of a sudden the majority think you’re wrong or trying to be inflammatory.

It’s ok for your country to be wrong on things and have people challenge the views you have been sold. Believe me, there is a lot wrong with my country too.

Paying drivers below minimum wage is wrong and creating a discriminatory system such as tipping is also wrong. Other developed countries around the world prove that paying a living wage with tips as optional works and the majority of people benefit from it, not just the people at the top.

If my comments have made one or two people change their views then I’ll consider it well worth it because they can then hopefully change one or two others views and so on.

[wongojack | 314]

7 minutes ago, Brickman said:

I know this is just meant as a blanket statement and you are most likely not directing at anyone but I will reply.

This site is 99% made up of people from the US so it becomes an echo chamber of how right people think their views are with the majority high fiving each others comments and give it a like while putting down any view that might be slightly different, As an outsider it is very hard to give a point of view that challenges that echo chamber. All of a sudden the majority think you’re wrong or trying to be inflammatory.

It’s ok for your country to be wrong on things and have people challenge the views you have been sold. Believe me, there is a lot wrong with my country too.

Paying drivers below minimum wage is wrong and creating a discriminatory system such as tipping is also wrong. Other developed countries around the world prove that paying a living wage with tips as optional works and the majority of people benefit from it, not just the people at the top.

If my comments have made one or two people change their views then I’ll consider it well worth it because they can then hopefully change one or two others views and so on.

That is certainly one way to approach disagreement.  You can gather evidence, make an observation and then tell some unrelated people about your observations.  With this approach, it is possible that some people will consider your position, listen and change their minds or shift their thinking in a different direction, but I don't think it is particularly effective.

Instead, I'm more persuaded by your last post here that expresses your sentiment that you are in the minority.  Perhaps you want to make a strong point in the midst of so much misguided blind agreement.  I think this might be more of what you are trying to accomplish because the phrasing you are using does not lend itself to convincing someone to change their mind.  Generalizing people as different from you and calling them wrong almost always gets negative attention and doesn't really get people thinking about your point of view.

 

[wongojack | 314]

8 hours ago, fcgamer said:

They're also failing to look at the restaurant side of things. The restaurants selling on the food delivery apps are making comparatively little as well, but they are almost forced to join the apps to stay competitive with the other restaurants in the city. It's also part of the reason why some of the places offer deals that aren't available in-person.

Although this may seem to be hunky-dory initially, it negatively impacts a lot of the non-chain restaurants. Let's all say goodbye to one of our favorite mom n pops too while we're at it! W00t, and this is what people call progress. Congratulations everyone.

But now you've moved away from the worker.  The worker needs protection, but I personally do not think that we need involvement from the government to protect a restaurant.  The restaurant is exactly the place where the burden should be placed in this situation.  The alternative would be to step in and protect the restaurant - I can't really support that.