General Current Events/Political Discussion

[MrWunderful | 2,932]

6 minutes ago, Estil said:

This coming from someone who throws around "fox news bs" even when nothing said came from Fox News...your last two sources, Rolling Stone (the one who infamously put Obama on the cover and made him look like Jesus) and Newsweek (or Obamaweek as I liked to call it back then) are about about the most super liberal/anti-Trump sources possible.  What's your next "back up to your argument", Vox, Mother Jones?  

Rules for thee but not for me, right?

ITS A TIMELINE. 

 

DATES ARE DATES. 

 

I would challenge you to point out a single non-truth in that article, but I know its not going to happen  

 

Trumpism #45 - Something prove you wrong? Discredit the source, apply personal attack. 
 

 

[Gloves | 12,266]

1 minute ago, fcgamer said:

Comparatively well...well how are we setting the standards of comparison?

Canada definitely isn't on the short list of countries that will be reviving international travel in the near future that I've heard (iirc that list consists of Japan, South Korea, New Zealand, and possibly Vietnam and Australia, yeah Taiwan should be on that list but isn't due to their unfortunate international status around the globe), so I guess they aren't doing all too well. Actually, that reminds me, at the moment I can't even send post to Canada. 

 

We're not planning on reviving international travel, if anything, for how poorly other countries are handling things. Internally we're handling it quite well, by the numbers.

I judge "doing well" by the death toll primarily, and in that regard the States has failed most supremely.

[MrWunderful | 2,932]

8 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Okay, now do yourself a favour and compare Trump's "fails" to the actions of other countries around the globe. If Trump and the USA were in shit, but every other country was doing well, then yes, I could blame things on him. But seeing as basically EVERY COUNTRY faired poorly, aside from Taiwan (the only country not listening to the WHO and their pack of lies), speaks loudly about the situation at hand. Just step back from the politics, and look at the facts.

That sounds like a deflection. 
 

No one argued other countries werent fucked too. 
 

I give a Timeline of Trumps fuckups, and you say “but other countries”. Thats irrelevant. 

[Reed Rothchild | 9,932]

Notice that neither one of you ( @fcgamer @Estil) could give me a simple grade.  Instead you had to point a finger at The WHO and at the rioters.

 

It's a compulsion in today's discourse.  Do not not concede any ground ever.  Die fighting for every hill.  Point a finger at something.

[MrWunderful | 2,932]

2 minutes ago, Reed Rothchild said:

Notice that neither one of you ( @fcgamer @Estil) could give me a simple grade.  Instead you had to point a finger at The WHO and at the rioters.

 

It's a compulsion in today's discourse.  Do not not concede any ground ever.  Die fighting for every hill.  Point a finger at something.

When confronted with evidence, double down and attack!

[Gloves | 12,266]

I'd like to point out that Canada has had fewer total cases than the States has had deaths.

The argument could be made that the US has more people and this is certainly true - 10x more people.

But even if we extrapolate the numbers out and multiple our cases and deaths by 10x, Canada has less than half the total cases, and a decent bit below half the total deaths in the US. We're neighbors, and we basically encompass "western civilization" between the two of us. But we've done doubly as well as the States by any reasonable measurement using cold hard numbers.

As far as who dealt with it better, I'd give Canada maybe a B? US I'd give a D. F to me would be devolving to the tactics taken by the Chinese government. At the very least the US still allowed basic rights to (most of) it's citizens. Canada only really had to ask us all nicely and we followed the rules provided, by and large.

[Tulpa | 3,715]

If your best argument is "well, x is just as fucked up," that's pretty much you acknowledging your side is fucked up.

 

Edited June 5, 2020 by Tulpa

[NESfiend | 1,561]

3 hours ago, Estil said:

I bet you weren't like that during the actual Dubya days!!  At least the second term one.

This is frankly no comparison. Bushisms and the like were funny. Just like all the Rs had all kinds of funny stuff about Clinton and Monica (remember when that party was the moral authority lol). We didn't like W because we worried about things like social security and privatization of public schools. And that all took a backseat with 911 when everyone agreed he stepped up as a leader and unified the country. We don't have time for policy concerns with trump. Too busy being scared his level of division leading to violence, his apathy on public health leading to death, etc. We are truly afraid of him. Its night and day to bushisms and jokes about Monica and Bill. You trying to make that comparison proves my point. One I made several days ago when I compared trump and corona to w and 911. 

I find it interesting that no trump defender has said he has done a great job with corona or that his policies have been successful. Its all just the same complaints that he is treated unfairly. He has the power to lead and doesnt. 

Edited June 5, 2020 by NESfiend

[Reed Rothchild | 9,932]

12 minutes ago, Gloves said:

As far as who dealt with it better, I'd give Canada maybe a B? US I'd give a D. F to me would be devolving to the tactics taken by the Chinese government. At the very least the US still allowed basic rights to (most of) it's citizens. Canada only really had to ask us all nicely and we followed the rules provided, by and large.

A reasonable assessment.  One could argue that the US was dealt the "hard mode" level compared to Canada.  You could also argue that we died to the 4th enemy or fell into the first pit anyway.

[Estil | 1,292]

28 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

Trumpism #45 - Something prove you wrong? Discredit the source, apply personal attack. 

You mean like repeatedly playing the "fox news bs" card on myself and others who didn't even use anything from it?  

[Estil | 1,292]

20 minutes ago, NESfiend said:

I find it interesting that no trump defender has said he has done a great job with corona or that his policies have been successful.

Because we don't yet know for sure one way or the other how it will end.  Just like how in the 9/11 attack (I honestly was afraid we might get a few more attacks at the time) and the later Taliban and Iraq wars/liberations we had no clue at the time how it would play out in the end.

And for the record when Trump defenders did make such a big fuss over the roaring economy I did often caution them not to jinx it.

[Estil | 1,292]

27 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

If your best argument is "well, x is just as fucked up," that's pretty much you acknowledging your side is fucked up.

Yeah about that whole "whataboutism" thing...isn't that something along the lines of why are you complaining about the speck in the other person's eye when your own eye has a huge oak stake in it (ouch!)?  IOW, just simply ensuring fair accountability all around.  What's so wrong about that?

[Gloves | 12,266]

3 minutes ago, Estil said:

Because we don't yet know for sure one way or the other how it will end.  Just like how in the 9/11 attack (I honestly was afraid we might get a few more attacks at the time) and the later Taliban and Iraq wars/liberations we had no clue at the time how it would play out in the end.

And for the record when Trump defenders did make such a big fuss over the roaring economy I did often caution them not to jinx it.

Pretend you're in a race.

The starting gun has been fired, and the other racers have taken off running. You, however, sit at the starting line and call the race a hoax.

A couple laps in you realize "maybe this is an actual race that I am participating in!", and start to jog, every so often slicing off one of your fingers because they're not helping your feet move more quickly (goddamn fingtards). 

The race isn't over yet, we have at least a few laps to go.

But like, how you feeling about your chances of winning?

[Tulpa | 3,715]

2 minutes ago, Estil said:

Yeah about that whole "whataboutism" thing...isn't that something along the lines of why are you complaining about the speck in the other person's eye when your own eye has a huge oak stake in it (ouch!)?  IOW, just simply ensuring fair accountability all around.  What's so wrong about that?

When you use it to deflect a question, it's not accountability, it's you not wanting to answer the question because you have no good answer.

"What do you say about Trump's handling of the virus?"

"Well, Obama didn't help him."

"Obama left him an entire playbook that would have helped a lot."

"Yeah, but ... Hilary's emails!"

 

See how that goes? When you don't have a good answer, just say so. We'll respect you a hell of a lot more. If you deflect or turn to whataboutism, you just look pathetic.

Edited June 5, 2020 by Tulpa

[avatar! | 1,941]

I fail to see how anyone with any decency let alone someone supposed to uphold the law can push a non-threatening and harmless elderly person to the ground....

https://buffalonews.com/2020/06/05/protester-pushed-to-ground-by-buffalo-police-is-longtime-peace-activist-from-amherst/

The two officers responsible should be terminated immediately, WITHOUT being able to apply again. Oh, and they should be arrested for reckless endangerment to the elderly (or something similar).  

[Strange | 1,730]

Yeah, I’m not going to share the video here because it’s deeply disturbing but everything about that situation is appalling. For anyone who wants to know what happened but isn’t sure about watching the graphic video, an elderly man attempted to peacefully speak to police and they pushed him to the ground. The back of his head hit the pavement, a pool of blood started pouring out of his ear around him. Every police officer looked down and walked past.

As someone who has had (mostly) good interactions with the police my whole life, it is clear that the militarized police forces in this country are a rampant cancer on our society. From every corner of this country we’ve seen in the last week countless acts of police brutality. From San Jose, where the young officer was bouncing up and down giddy as fuck to start shooting until he got his little (emphasis on little) feelings hurt, called someone a bitch, and started shooting at them, to what we just saw in Buffalo where they assaulted an elderly man trying to politely speak to an officer. These are just two of hundreds of videos we’ve seen in the last week.

Our police respond to protests of police brutality by committing more police brutality, so they can continue to do so in the future. Wonderful.

Edited June 5, 2020 by The Strangest

[Gloves | 12,266]

2 minutes ago, ChickenTendas4PokeyEater said:

Everyone here is talking about racism in the US, but I'm curious as to how you and other Canadians reacted to this: https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-votes-2019-trudeau-blackface-brownface-cbc-explains-1.5290664 when the story came out. I truely have no clue what I'd think if I was a Canadian who voted for Trudeau.

It's fairly simple for me, he's done something you'd never see the likes of Trump do: admit he was wrong and apologize.

"I never talked about this. Quite frankly, I was embarrassed," Trudeau told reporters on Sept. 19. "It was not something that represents the person I've become, the leader I try to be, and it was really embarrassing."

I can personally respect the ability to accept one's mistakes, and try to move past them.

[Strange | 1,730]

5 hours ago, DefaultGen said:

I'm almost 100% sure the only way to eliminate systemic racism is if Earth is threatened by similarly-powerful alien force that doesn't wipe us out immediately. That way humans can all come together in their collective hatred of the outside alien species. How unified! Although even then, different religions would probably interpret aliens in different ways and we'd probably all destroy ourselves before the aliens even had to invade.

I agree that racism will likely be extremely difficult to eradicate or may never be, but just to nitpick a little:

Systemic racism is racism that is perpetuated by society because of how our society was laid out over a long period of time, not necessarily having to do with individuals right now. The best way I can describe it is if everyone in the entire country suddenly stopped being racist entirely, minorities would still face societal hurdles that have been in place for decades. These include housing discrimination, wealth gaps, unemployment, incarceration rates, etc.

[MrWunderful | 2,932]

7 minutes ago, Gloves said:

It's fairly simple for me, he's done something you'd never see the likes of Trump do: admit he was wrong and apologize.

"I never talked about this. Quite frankly, I was embarrassed," Trudeau told reporters on Sept. 19. "It was not something that represents the person I've become, the leader I try to be, and it was really embarrassing."

I can personally respect the ability to accept one's mistakes, and try to move past them.

Having some humility goes a long way. 
 

Trump has never apologized once. He even talked about it in a book. 
Thats something you teach little kids. 
 

Remember when he literally said “im not responsible”? Thats chicken shit. 
 

Real Men face their mistakes own up, and work past them. 
 

Trump turns to petty insults, lies and passes the blame onto others.  He whines and cries like a playground bully who got stood up to anD popped in the mouth by the girl he was picking on. 
 

Proof: The presidents twitter feed. 

[cartman | 195]

6 minutes ago, Gloves said:

It's fairly simple for me, he's done something you'd never see the likes of Trump do: admit he was wrong and apologize.

"I never talked about this. Quite frankly, I was embarrassed," Trudeau told reporters on Sept. 19. "It was not something that represents the person I've become, the leader I try to be, and it was really embarrassing."

I can personally respect the ability to accept one's mistakes, and try to move past them.

Why was he wrong? It's a fucking masquerade and he dressed up. Yes i know... the finer folks with the moral highground have decided that this is wrong so i have to realize that my opinion is wrong and theirs is a fact.

I mean this is the man that corrected someone saying he should've said "peoplekind" instead of "mankind" so you pretty much know what time it is

 

[Gloves | 12,266]

8 minutes ago, cartman said:

Why was he wrong? It's a fucking masquerade and he dressed up. Yes i know... the finer folks with the moral highground have decided that this is wrong so i have to realize that my opinion is wrong and theirs is a fact.

I mean this is the man that corrected someone saying he should've said "peoplekind" instead of "mankind" so you pretty much know what time it is

 

I do at the least agree that the whole "peoplekind" thing was a bit of a stretch. "Mankind" is just a shortened "Humankind"; if we're gonna re-lengthen the word to be more inclusive just go back to saying the original word which encompasses all.

As for why he was wrong, blackface is generally accepted as being a negative thing and has been so for a long time. You don't have to agree that it is or should be seen as negative, but the fact remains that he has personally decided that it is, and that it's not the way he wants to be perceived. The way he's treating it is the point, not the fact that it was done. 

Again, the difference here is the ability to see and own up to one's mistakes, rather than doubling down on them. You don't have to agree that what he did was an actual mistake to at the least be able to respect the ability to learn and grow and change.

[Tulpa | 3,715]

23 minutes ago, cartman said:

Why was he wrong? It's a fucking masquerade and he dressed up.

Blackface has had a troubled history in North America at least, as it was originally used in a grotesque portrayal of African American culture and identity.

[Tulpa | 3,715]

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/05/sport/roger-goodell-responds-nfl-stronger-together-video/index.html

"We the National Football League, condemn racism and the systematic oppression of black people," Goodell said. "We, the National Football League, admit we were wrong for not listening to NFL players earlier and encourage all to speak out and peacefully protest," Goodell said.

 

[cartman | 195]

9 minutes ago, Gloves said:

I do at the least agree that the whole "peoplekind" thing was a bit of a stretch. "Mankind" is just a shortened "Humankind"; if we're gonna re-lengthen the word to be more inclusive just go back to saying the original word which encompasses all.

As for why he was wrong, blackface is generally accepted as being a negative thing and has been so for a long time. You don't have to agree that it is or should be seen as negative, but the fact remains that he has personally decided that it is, and that it's not the way he wants to be perceived. The way he's treating it is the point, not the fact that it was done. 

Again, the difference here is the ability to see and own up to one's mistakes, rather than doubling down on them. You don't have to agree that what he did was an actual mistake to at the least be able to respect the ability to learn and grow and change.

Yeah well that's the type of people he's pandering to. People without shit to do waiting around all day for something to get offended by so that they can log into their social media accounts and show everyone how enlightened they were to get offended. 

Me i think what's offensive should be the intent rather than the act. Otherwise we have to start censoring fiction and a lot of fun shit becomes drab and boring.

#1 the man was called out and #2 he wouldn't have the leeway to stand by it. He has manufactured his supreme woke boytoy-persona so now he has to defend it in order to remain in his political lane. He's not in the correct lane to be able to take a stance for something like that and run with it.

 

 

 

[cartman | 195]

41 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

Blackface has had a troubled history in North America at least, as it was originally used in a grotesque portrayal of African American culture and identity.

That's when blacks were segregated. But it doesn't have to be illegitimate because of that caricatures can have a place while it still remains wrong to be abusive irl.