General Current Events/Political Discussion

[spacepup | 2,482]

I'll just say, that I think we as a society and as individuals can always strive to do better and to be better toward others.  We should continue to strive for that, always, and to periodically analyze our own actions and thoughts.

[Tulpa | 3,704]

45 minutes ago, ZBomber said:

What a fancy term for "empathy".

Seriously.

I don't need to personally experience racism to know it is wrong. Or to do the right thing.

 

Edited June 6, 2020 by Tulpa

[fcgamer | 5,006]

I don't think anyone here is racist?

 

[Tulpa | 3,704]

4 hours ago, cartman said:

But caricatures would and do get invented even without some dark past. Here's a bag of candy from over here wich they threw a tantrum over because she has slanted eyes. But that's the whole fucking point of a cartoon character you exaggerate the features to make it funny that's why they didn't put some real person on there like Uncle Ben's rice because it's not the same thing. 

 

Yellowface is another caricature that has a not so great past in America. The "redskin" caricature of Native Americans has also been troubled.

I don't know if you have studied American culture much, but in the past, we've been really fucking awful in the treatment of minorities for most of our history. Even those caricatures were often used in a way to oppress people of color, sometimes in very violent ways. That's why many of them carry such baggage, and why they make people uncomfortable nowadays.

It's not to say you "can't" do it, but it has to have context. Robert Downey Jr.'s blackface in Tropic Thunder had a bit of controversy, but for the most part people saw it as actually satirizing blackface itself. That's the difference between what Downey Jr. did and what Trudeau did. And I wouldn't worry about it "stifling humor." It's not some slippery slope (which is a fallacy, btw.) Tropic Thunder was pretty recent. There are ways of keeping humor without resorting to crude stuff that has issues. It usually results in better comedy anyway. There's so much stuff in the world that is legitimately funny that is in no danger of being PC'ed out of existence. Seriously.

Blackface and its ilk isn't anything new for Americans, or kids in recent years "getting offended for Twitter likes," this has been a thing in America that we've been reconciling for decades now. I can't speak for Europe or elsewhere, but the United States is a very diverse country, and we're trying to make it a livable place for everyone. As you can see from recent events, we're still a long ways off.

But we're trying. And we're not doing it to show up the rest of the world "HEY LOOK AT HOW PROGRESSIVE WE ARE" in that sense. We're trying because it's the right thing to do. Land of the free and all people are equal and all that.

[fcgamer | 5,006]

@Tulpa you can speak for yourself and why you do it, but you can't speak for everyone.

[MrWunderful | 2,932]

3 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

@Tulpa you can speak for yourself and why you do it, but you can't speak for everyone.

Like you saying people “think” they are being progressive when they aren’t? You and Cartman dont get to tell others what social change fight they want to take up. 
 

Oh and being a white ex-pat in taiwan is NOTHING like what black people ever faced in thIs country (which you dont even live in btw) and you even bringing it up like its comparable is a fucking travesty

[fcgamer | 5,006]

18 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

Like you saying people “think” they are being progressive when they aren’t? You and Cartman dont get to tell others what social change fight they want to take up. 
 

Oh and being a white ex-pat in taiwan is NOTHING like what black people ever faced in thIs country (which you dont even live in btw) and you even bringing it up like its comparable is a fucking travesty

I felt the same when the media outlets were comparing the USA riots to HK... surely you saw some of those comparisons, no?

[fcgamer | 5,006]

@MrWunderful : Also, you don't have the right to tell people how severe the racial discrimination they experienced is or isn't, and you certainly don't have the right to downplay mine. You have no clue about it here, you haven't experienced it and my guess is you haven't even researched it slightly.

Edited June 6, 2020 by fcgamer

[cartman | 195]

6 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

Yellowface is another caricature that has a not so great past in America. The "redskin" caricature of Native Americans has also been troubled.

I don't know if you have studied American culture much, but in the past, we've been really fucking awful in the treatment of minorities for most of our history. Even those caricatures were often used in a way to oppress people of color, sometimes in very violent ways. That's why many of them carry such baggage, and why they make people uncomfortable nowadays.

It's not to say you "can't" do it, but it has to have context. Robert Downey Jr.'s blackface in Tropic Thunder had a bit of controversy, but for the most part people saw it as actually satirizing blackface itself. That's the difference between what Downey Jr. did and what Trudeau did. And I wouldn't worry about it "stifling humor." It's not some slippery slope (which is a fallacy, btw.) Tropic Thunder was pretty recent. There are ways of keeping humor without resorting to crude stuff that has issues. It usually results in better comedy anyway. There's so much stuff in the world that is legitimately funny that is in no danger of being PC'ed out of existence. Seriously.

Blackface and its ilk isn't anything new for Americans, or kids in recent years "getting offended for Twitter likes," this has been a thing in America that we've been reconciling for decades now. I can't speak for Europe or elsewhere, but the United States is a very diverse country, and we're trying to make it a livable place for everyone. As you can see from recent events, we're still a long ways off.

But we're trying. And we're not doing it to show up the rest of the world "HEY LOOK AT HOW PROGRESSIVE WE ARE" in that sense. We're trying because it's the right thing to do. Land of the free and all people are equal and all that.

I wasn't talking about America i was highlighting how these portrayal will cause complaining with or without some historical racism having taken place. The chinese don't trace history here asey do in America. I really don't think history covers the full reason and that people will still get offendec regardless. Surely you can't deny that the times are like this where people are actively encouraged to turn every fucking stone over and find something to be offended about.

We should also recognize that it wasn't neccessarily done with evil intent even in times where there might've been discrimination otherwise. The yellowface atleast to me seems like an honest attempt to portray an Asian character in movies what is so bad about that? Is that not why we watch movies so that people can be someone that they aren't? My gripe would be if it looks shitty and unbelievable but other than that i really have a hard time to get into this mindset of problematizing a cosplay. I mean most of these stories already are glamorized bullshit with no historical value anyway but i should stop now and analyze "wait why is Cleopatra white and played by X"? 

I think with blackface too the point was more the theatrics rather than the "racial science" at it's core. It's just that it was happening at the same time as rampant racial abuse. But a lot of other things were also more raunchy in that respect than they are now. 

 

[MrWunderful | 2,932]

19 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

@MrWunderful : Also, you don't have the right to tell people how severe the racial discrimination they experienced is or isn't, and you certainly don't have the right to downplay mine. You have no clue about it here, you haven't experienced it and my guess is you haven't even researched it slightly.

 No but I was cuffed and watched my friend get smacked around by a cop because he was brown, and I didnt because I was white. 
 

Ive been to the Emmet Till sign. 

Ive walked across the Edmmund Pettis Bridge, in Selma. 

I went to little rock high school and saw the pictures in person of the Little rock nine getting spit on because they wanted to attend high school. 
 

Ive been to the Lorraine Motel.

 

I had parishioners cook me a meal in the basement of the 16th ave Baptist church in Birmingham, Alabama.

I met Rep  John Lewis and spoke with him about how a young white Male can educate others on race relations.

I dont expect anyone to know what most of that is, or why they are important to civil rights. Shit I dont even care if you believe me  

Im confident being lynched, murdered and beat because the color of their skin is different than being called “whitey” at a fucking restaurant. 
 

I may not be able to feel what all those people felt, but at least I made a concerted effort. 
 

200+ years of systematic oppression is not the same as people not wanting to rent you an apartment. 
 

Check your white privilege. 

[Tulpa | 3,704]

34 minutes ago, cartman said:

 Surely you can't deny that the times are like this where people are actively encouraged to turn every fucking stone over and find something to be offended about.

 

I don't deny that it takes place at times, and yes, some people get offended for the kicks, but is that the majority of "progressive activism"? No.

Most of the people who are taking up progressive issues are doing it because it is the right thing to do. I can say that with confidence.

There are legit issues that need a progressive stance. I mean, the United States was a country that enslaved a race of people. We're still reeling from the fallout of that, and we still have to work on things.

It's not all about the Facebook likes. Not even remotely.

34 minutes ago, cartman said:

We should also recognize that it wasn't neccessarily done with evil intent even in times where there might've been discrimination otherwise. The yellowface atleast to me seems like an honest attempt to portray an Asian character in movies what is so bad about that? Is that not why we watch movies so that people can be someone that they aren't? My gripe would be if it looks shitty and unbelievable but other than that i really have a hard time to get into this mindset of problematizing a cosplay. I mean most of these stories already are glamorized bullshit with no historical value anyway but i should stop now and analyze "wait why is Cleopatra white and played by X"? 

That comes down to intent vs effect. Yes, the intentions might have been non-malicious (though quite a few were malicious), but the effect was still often shitty. It made these minority cultures feel less than human, or popularized stereotypes that were detrimental to their way of life. Often in ways that weren't apparent, but were definitely felt. Yellowface has been used to portray Asians as "Oooh, look at how weird these people are!" Just like blackface. At least in America, that's how it has been.

There's a saying, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. That can apply to caricatures.

Has there been a few positive portayals? Yes, Charlie Chan, a character from early American cinema, was shown as an intelligent police detective of Chinese descent. But it was still a Swedish (Warner Oland) or American (Sidney Toler) actor doing a stereotype, and it gets uncomfortable to watch nowadays. I admit to being entertained by them, but there's still a twinge of "This is kind of weird" when I saw it.

And as humans, we need to be sensitive to these things (in the sense of knowing that we're doing something that can cause harm.)

Added to the fact that white actors were playing roles of, say, Asian characters when there was a perfectly capable Asian actor (or ten, or a hundred) ready and willing to do it.

Is it to say you can't do caricatures at all? No, it's saying that you have to be cognizant of the effect it will have.

Yes, you have to do some thinking. Welcome to the human race. We've had to reevaluate a lot of things in our existence. It's what we do as as we hurdle through space on this rock.

 

34 minutes ago, cartman said:

I think with blackface too the point was more the theatrics rather than the "racial science" at it's core. It's just that it was happening at the same time as rampant racial abuse. But a lot of other things were also more raunchy in that respect than they are now. 

 

I would argue that a lot of it was happening because of rampant racial abuse. That's why a lot of it was portrayed in such a grotesque manner.

That Porky Pig clip is pretty damn funny, though.

 

 

Edited June 6, 2020 by Tulpa

[fcgamer | 5,006]

11 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

 No but I was cuffed and watched my friend get smacked around by a cop because he was brown, and I didnt because I was white. 
 

Ive been to the Emmet Till sign. 

Ive walked across the Edmmund Pettis Bridge, in Selma. 

I went to little rock high school and saw the pictures in person of the Little rock nine getting spit on because they wanted to attend high school. 
 

Ive been to the Lorraine Motel.

 

I had parishioners cook me a meal in the basement of the 16th ave Baptist church in Birmingham, Alabama.

I met Rep  John Lewis and spoke with him about how a young white Male can educate others on race relations.

I dont expect anyone to know what most of that is, or why they are important to civil rights. Shit I dont even care if you believe me  

Im confident being lynched, murdered and beat because the color of their skin is different than being called “whitey” at a fucking restaurant. 
 

I may not be able to feel what all those people felt, but at least I made a concerted effort. 
 

200+ years of systematic oppression is not the same as people not wanting to rent you an apartment. 
 

Check your white privilege. 

Like I said, you have no right to try to downplay when another person has been racially discriminated against, especially when you never experienced it yourself. About your anecdotes, cool stories bro, yeah I've got black friends too.

The way the system is set up here could easily be considered systematic racism. Furthermore, I'm not going to go down posting a list on a public forum of the times I and others have been discriminated against, no I was never lynched or murdered, but being denied entry to services, denied holiday time, even sick days... seriously dude, you personally were never racially discriminated against, am I right? If that's so, you don't know how it feels, though empathy would give you some simulated feeling of how it might feel.

[JamesRobot | 6,026]

2 hours ago, fcgamer said:

I don't think anyone here is racist?

Nope.  I hate all you people equally. 

[Murray | 2,484]

What do you mean “you people” 

[cartman | 195]

1 minute ago, Tulpa said:

I don't deny that it takes place at times, and yes, some people get offended for the kicks, but is that the majority of "progressive activism"? No.

Most of the people who are taking up progressive issues are doing it because it is the right thing to do. I can say that with confidence.

There are legit issues that need a progressive stance. I mean, the United States was a country that enslaved a race of people. We're still reeling from the fallout of that, and we still have to work on things.

It's not all about the Facebook likes. Not even remotely.

That comes down to intent vs effect. Yes, the intentions might have been non-malicious (though quite a few were malicious), but the effect was still often shitty. It made these minority cultures feel less than human, or popularized stereotypes that were detrimental to their way of life. Often in ways that weren't apparent, but were definitely felt. Yellowface has been used to portray Asians as "Oooh, look at how weird these people are!" Just like blackface. At least in America, that's how it has been.

There's a saying, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. That can apply to caricatures.

Has there been a few positive portayals? Yes, Charlie Chan, a character from early American cinema, was shown as an intelligent police detective of Chinese descent. But it was still a Swedish or American actor doing a stereotype, and it gets uncomfortable to watch nowadays.

And as humans, we need to be sensitive to these things (in the sense of knowing that we're doing something that can cause harm.)

Added to the fact that white actors were playing roles of, say, Asian characters when there was a perfectly capable Asian actor (or ten, or a hundred) ready and willing to do it.

Is it to say you can't do caricatures at all? No, it's saying that you have to be cognizant of the effect it will have.

Yes, you have to do some thinking. Welcome to the human race. We've had to reevaluate a lot of things in our existence. It's what we do as as we hurdle through space on this rock.

 

I would argue that a lot of it was happening because of rampant racial abuse. That's why a lot of it was portrayed in such a grotesque manner.

That Porky Pig clip is pretty damn funny, though.

 

 

It wouldn't surprise me at all if it was the majority and even without the kicks there's so much petty bullshit with these causes it would've been bad either way. But it seems obvious to me that these egos need to be heard and pumped up. "The right thing to do" is according to themselves and it never ends there they always inject themselves in other peoples business thinking their morals are definite. It's not even progressive at all it's a self-made badge that they've awarded to themselves. In reality they're quite regressive.

In what way did portrayal of other races/culture made them "feel less than human"? It's exotic and different and being a work of fiction, glamorized. Ofcourse there will be stereotypes that goes with everything. If ninjas and martial arts are exciting then that's what you will show more than fishing at some lake or some shit like that. But it doesn't mean non-human just because it's exaggerated or not relevant anymore to their current culture. The stereotypes are there because that's the interesting aspects of it.

But what do you think about the idea that many if not all stories are universal? If some theatre in Japan wants to do a play on Shakespeare and they're portraying the characters while looking like they do and with their dialects is that wrong? What about if they want to re-enact the civil war in America and they're all from Japan should that be deemed offensive? I'm not saying only white people should get to tell foreign stories everyone can tell whatever they want i think it's fine.

Yes Asians can tell those stories about them. But if someone else can pull it off then that's fine too. Like Scarlett Johansson could've pulled off a transgender role but some transgenders started raising a stink over that an actor should play a fictional character that she doesn't resemble in her real life. You know, the very fucking definition of what acting is. That's a good example of a so-called progressive issue that's nothing of the sort.

[fcgamer | 5,006]

10 minutes ago, JamesRobot said:

Nope.  I hate all you people equally. 

Well, as much as cats can act like asses sometimes, yeah I'd generally prefer cats to humans I reckon.

[MrWunderful | 2,932]

51 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Like I said, you have no right to try to downplay when another person has been racially discriminated against, especially when you never experienced it yourself. About your anecdotes, cool stories bro, yeah I've got black friends too.

The way the system is set up here could easily be considered systematic racism. Furthermore, I'm not going to go down posting a list on a public forum of the times I and others have been discriminated against, no I was never lynched or murdered, but being denied entry to services, denied holiday time, even sick days... seriously dude, you personally were never racially discriminated against, am I right? If that's so, you don't know how it feels, though empathy would give you some simulated feeling of how it might feel.

You equated me trying to educate myself on civil rights to “you got black friends too”

 

What a joke  

Thanks for leaving our country, we dont need your kind.  I personally, dont give two shits about Taiwan or how poor little Dave is treated there.  
 

Not only do you not get a say in the race discussion in OUR country, making it about poor little Dave is the most Trumpian thing ever. 
 

“who cares about black people? One time I got called whitey in a restaurant”

Crying, whining and deflecting about how you are the victim is Bitch shit. 

[Tulpa | 3,704]

25 minutes ago, cartman said:

It wouldn't surprise me at all if it was the majority and even without the kicks there's so much petty bullshit with these causes it would've been bad either way. But it seems obvious to me that these egos need to be heard and pumped up. "The right thing to do" is according to themselves and it never ends there they always inject themselves in other peoples business thinking their morals are definite. It's not even progressive at all it's a self-made badge that they've awarded to themselves. In reality they're quite regressive.

 

Like I said, some, sure.

But to automatically dismiss progressive activism as " egos need to be heard and pumped up" is disingenuous. If you're constantly seeing it as people doing it for the likes, or that their causes are "petty bullshit", then that says more about you than them.

 

25 minutes ago, cartman said:

In what way did portrayal of other races/culture made them "feel less than human"? It's exotic and different and being a work of fiction, glamorized. Ofcourse there will be stereotypes that goes with everything. If ninjas and martial arts are exciting then that's what you will show more than fishing at some lake or some shit like that. But it doesn't mean non-human just because it's exaggerated or not relevant anymore to their current culture. The stereotypes are there because that's the interesting aspects of it.

 

It was used to portray them as "the other." The "outside the tribe" and therefore not worthy of inclusion.

When people talk about systemic racism, this is part of it. It ingrains itself into the culture, making it easier to promote discrimination. "Oh, black people are loud and rebellious, they need to be in their place." "Oh, Asians are book smart, they don't need any artistic education." And that's just a sampling of what I've personally seen. I'm sure that people in those groups can attest to more.

People base their ideas on cultures on what they see in movies and TV, and when they meet the people for real, they treat them very shittily, even when they have the best of intentions.

Are stereotypes interesting? Yes, and that's the trap.

When you start assuming people are a certain way due to stereotypes, that's when the trouble starts. People are diverse. We need to start recognizing that.

Does that mean getting rid of all stereotypes wholesale? No, and no reasonable person would expect that. It's about improving how we handle it.

25 minutes ago, cartman said:

But what do you think about the idea that many if not all stories are universal? If some theatre in Japan wants to do a play on Shakespeare and they're portraying the characters while looking like they do and with their dialects is that wrong? What about if they want to re-enact the civil war in America and they're all from Japan should that be deemed offensive? I'm not saying only white people should get to tell foreign stories everyone can tell whatever they want i think it's fine.

 

Not necessarily. It depends on context.

Can Japanese actors do the Civil War? Sure. But if it starts to be a one dimensional portrayal with stereotypes, it runs into the same issues. Maybe not as amplified, given the power white culture has, but the argument can be made.

25 minutes ago, cartman said:

Yes Asians can tell those stories about them. But if someone else can pull it off then that's fine too. Like Scarlett Johansson could've pulled off a transgender role but some transgenders started raising a stink over that an actor should play a fictional character that she doesn't resemble in her real life. You know, the very fucking definition of what acting is. That's a good example of a so-called progressive issue that's nothing of the sort.

Would you portray Martin Luther King Jr. as someone other than black? Or hire a non-black actor to realistically portray him?

Of course not.

Because being black was an intrinsic part of his identity, and who we know him for.

Again, context.

John Wayne portraying Genghis Khan was weird. I understand they wanted a big star for the role, but he sucked at that portrayal, and you watch it now and its laughable. Nowadays you wouldn't even think of putting a non-Asian actor in that role. And that's a good thing.

Can Scarlett Johansson play a transgender person? Well, it would depend on the role. I don't see her playing Nicole Maines in a movie, as Nicole Maines exists, is an actor herself, and f'n lived the life of Nicole Maines, so you'd go with her over Scarlett. Nicole Maines would have the inside track on that role.

Yes, actors can pretend to be something else, but you really have to stop and look at what you're doing before you just willy-nilly cast a role. It's not to say you can't, just that you have to be aware of what you're doing.

Again, context. You have to take a hard look at what you're actually doing and portraying.

It's that having to think and analyze thing. Yes, I know it sucks to actually use your brain. But guess what, that's not the worst thing in the world, now, is it?

 

 

Edited June 6, 2020 by Tulpa

[fcgamer | 5,006]

@Tulpa: I actually agree with a lot of the points you make in the post above, though regarding the John Wayne/Genghis Khan and Japanese actors / American Civil War thing, I personally feel either both should be okay nor neither. Abraham Lincoln being portrayed by a Japanese guy would be equally as weird, no? 

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

6 hours ago, fcgamer said:

I'd reckon that most of VGS has NOT been racially discriminated against... again, I say racially...

I have been, for the past ten years of my bloody life!!!

If you haven't personally been discriminated against, honestly, it's not your fight, and similarly, no, you don't have a clue what it feels like, even if you had a friend that was racially discriminated against, etc. 

Fighting the good fight because you want to look progressive or leftist or cool or whatever imo takes away from those and their stories, who actually WERE racially discriminated against. Let's dismiss white privilege, let's coin progressive privilege, i.e. those that fight these issues, yet they never experienced them and have no clue how it feels.

If people who are not discriminated against are discouraged from actively and loudly supporting those who have a history of discrimination, then things never change.  

People with the power and who don't face the discrimination have to oppose that discrimination for it not to remain the norm.

[fcgamer | 5,006]

24 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

You equated me trying to educate myself on civil rights to “you got black friends too”

 

What a joke  

Thanks for leaving our country, we dont need your kind.  I personally, dont give two shits about Taiwan or how poor little Dave is treated there.  
 

Not only do you not get a say in the race discussion in OUR country, making it about poor little Dave is the most Trumpian thing ever. 
 

“who cares about black people? One time I got called whitey in a restaurant”

Crying, whining and deflecting about how you are the victim is Bitch shit. 

My kind? WTF?

 

[MrWunderful | 2,932]

2 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

My kind? WTF?

 

White privilege victims.

 

We only had so many poking around until Trump made it Cool (with a little help from Rush Limbaugh and Tucker Carlson)  but now its all the rage. 
 

Step 1-

Someone bring up racism? Pivot and talk about how YOUR life is unfair. 

[Tulpa | 3,704]

8 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

@Tulpa: I actually agree with a lot of the points you make in the post above, though regarding the John Wayne/Genghis Khan and Japanese actors / American Civil War thing, I personally feel either both should be okay nor neither. Abraham Lincoln being portrayed by a Japanese guy would be equally as weird, no? 

It would honestly depend on the context and the larger point being made. If Japan was trying to earnestly portray Abraham Lincoln's ideals in a non-realistic setting, then yes, I could see an Asian man doing it. That was what the musical Hamilton was doing. The musical was making its point in an oblique way, not trying to be an accurate portrayal of Hamilton or the founding fathers.

John Wayne's Genghis Khan was making no such statement.

Edited June 6, 2020 by Tulpa

[JamesRobot | 6,026]

52 minutes ago, Murray said:

What do you mean “you people” 

I was using the royal "you."  As in all of you.  I hate all you people.

[Tulpa | 3,704]

2 minutes ago, JamesRobot said:

I was using the royal "you."  As in all of you.  I hate all you people.

                                                       /

Edited June 6, 2020 by Tulpa