General Current Events/Political Discussion

[CodysGameRoom | 2,014]

Just now, Tabonga said:

If you will recall we discussed David Dorn in some of our previous posts.

It is worthy of inclusion because of your inclusion of an article whose author specifically mentions black people killed by non-police perpetrators. 

Ok. Forget the article I used a source. One random article I chose out of the seas of sources that show my point. My point is systemic racism against black people by the police in the United States is a problem. You pointing out this murder doesn't disprove my point. Your source article didn't disprove my point. No one here has said anything that disproves that point.

[Tabonga | 2,533]

It just so happens I have a pretty good memory:

https://xaviernewswire.com/2020/06/05/say-their-names/?fbclid=IwAR17RE3RT8DtO4jkj50SRN56Dqud4kvX5z_QmMK7ppiTsD3m0v4OZDNrnFE

It shows much more than your point.  The author you cited* broadened the issue to include black deaths by non-police people,  I owned it when I was wrong - I would hope that you would have the same integrity.   

*Incorrectly - but again that is on you.

[Estil | 1,291]

1 hour ago, CodysGameRoom said:

We did it before with McCarthyism and witch hunting for Communists...we're doing it again witch hunting for racists.  And YES being accused/labeled a Communist in those days was just as bad if not worse and could potentially half-ruin your life just as much if not more than being accused/labeled a racist can and often does today.

[ThePhleo | 2,267]

5 hours ago, Silent Hill said:

Buddy, you're crazy if you think washing someone's feet in 2020 because of their race is a good sign of things to come or what these people advocate for.

Like I said, it’s symbolism during a protest. Totally justified. Think of it as performance art.

The only people washing feet in 2020 are salon workers, massage therapist, and sex workers and they aren’t doing it for free either.

[Link | 2,880]

Since we are discussing context, black people comprise 12% of the US population. So for 33% of bad kills to be of black people doesn’t track. That’s what disproportionate means.

The killers of the four people are unknown. (EDIT: apparently I found old info re: Dorn) Nothing points to police officers in those cases, as far as I can tell. Neither are demonstrators implicated. 

Here are four more people whose killers are not known. They also have something in common. Multiple somethings, rather.

Antonio Jones
Edward Crawford
Darren Seals
DeAndre Joshua

Edited June 8, 2020 by Link

[Estil | 1,291]

17 hours ago, NESfiend said:

And I'll answer @Estil question with a resounding of course I would continue to enjoy your membership and cat worship regardless of your views.

I just want to clairfy in the famous words of PFC Gomer Pyle I love cats and they're my very favorite of all of God's creatures but I don't worship them.  Now if I was in certain time periods of Ancient Egypt I might've worshiped them.  Or if I was a Muslim I would consider them very sacred animals with the Prophet Muhammad himself giving special treatment/blessings for them, such as marking their forehead with a "M" to give them their landing on their feet sort of thing and that story of him chopping off the end of his prayer rug(?) so as not to disturb the sleeping kitty and I would even think nothing of kitties running around in my local mosque but even then of course I wouldn't worship them.

Just wanted to clarify, nothing more  

[MrWunderful | 2,932]

Damn 51 pages of people doing everything they can to disprove racism (really love the “but black people kill more black people” argument) And discussion, 

But not one person has said anything positive about Trump, or how him being in charge has made America better. 
 

Still just deflect, deflect, deflect. 
 

Ill start:

 

Trump is such a disaster and Fiasco, that maybe a blue wave will sweep executive, and both houses and we get some real change. 
 

I cant wait for all the people that are going to quietly bury their MAGA hats and flags in the bottom of the garbage and pretend like they never supported him in the first place. 
 

Im on board for Higher personal taxes and some socialized health care. 

[Estil | 1,291]

I don't know if this really counts but I DID in fact very much agree with Trump's immigration stance at the old NA forum.  Remember I used the Lean on Me movie to illustrate it?  I also like his stance on school vouchers and judicial appointments.  But the fact that I agree with Trump on some issues/policies is a lot different than being one of the true MAGA types who was with him from at or near the very start (I was very skeptical of his chances/whether not he was "for real" for the longest time).  But in either that case or the BLM case I don't want to feel backed into a corner like I'm obligated to just blindly play along with any one person or any group/movement.  I feel it's vitally important to keep an open mind and as one former Senator put it, to reserve the right to debate or disagree with anyone or any group/movement.  

As far as the higher taxes thing goes, let's be real...nobody likes taxes.  But of course you must have some taxes.  Maybe the reason people don't often give the benefit of the doubt regarding tax increases is that they're not so sure that even if it is indeed absolutely necessary, how can you be sure it goes where it's supposed to go?

As for how to do the whole gov't health care thing, that's one issue that's waaaaaay above my pay grade!

Edited June 8, 2020 by Estil

[fcgamer | 5,015]

49 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

Damn 51 pages of people doing everything they can to disprove racism (really love the “but black people kill more black people” argument) And discussion, 

But not one person has said anything positive about Trump, or how him being in charge has made America better. 
 

Still just deflect, deflect, deflect. 
 

Ill start:

 

Trump is such a disaster and Fiasco, that maybe a blue wave will sweep executive, and both houses and we get some real change. 
 

I cant wait for all the people that are going to quietly bury their MAGA hats and flags in the bottom of the garbage and pretend like they never supported him in the first place. 
 

Im on board for Higher personal taxes and some socialized health care. 

After 51 pages all I learned is that some racism "doesn't count" and some lives "don't matter", if it doesn't fit into the agenda being pushed. 

[Tabonga | 2,533]

2 hours ago, Link said:

Since we are discussing context, black people comprise 12% of the US population. So for 33% of bad kills to be of black people doesn’t track. That’s what disproportionate means.

The killers of the four people are unknown. (EDIT: apparently I found old info re: Dorn) Nothing points to police officers in those cases, as far as I can tell. Neither are demonstrators implicated. 

Here are four more people whose killers are not known. They also have something in common. Multiple somethings, rather.

Antonio Jones
Edward Crawford
Darren Seals
DeAndre Joshua

According to FBI statistics for 2013* (I cited the source in an earlier post) blacks committed slightly over 47% of all (solved obviously) homicides in that year.  But wait - it gets better  ( a case of hyperbole which I am sure the discerning reader can properly interpret as worse) - slightly over 90% of black murder victims were killed by other blacks. I know that some other crimes show a fairly large disparity in who commits them that show blacks as having a disproportionate number in terms of instigation (and I believe as victims). The upshot is that with such numbers the police are going to have interactions with blacks far exceeding those with other populations.  Assuming the ratios follow true for unsolved crimes the interactions are going to boosted even more.  And I am really sure that when arrests are being made, the suspects are a model of cooperativeness.   More contacts, more chances of deaths (whether justified or not). If there is indeed a war on blacks the vast preponderance of it is coming from the black community itself.  Look at it this way - if you could wave your magic wand and either end all black deaths by police or all black deaths by other blacks which would you choose?

 Dave Patrick Underwood was shot while guarding a US courthouse that was vandalized during the protests.  Not a big stretch here.

Chris Beatty was apparently shot by thieves who were very likely taking advantage (at the very least) of the chaos created by the protests/looting/arsons.

In the Italia Kelly case she was shot (in the back) while leaving a protest. The conclusion seems  pretty obvious.  Her sister certainly thougt so:

As you mentioned  there have been other deaths attributable to the protests/looting/arsons  - 22 by some counts.  Was it worth it to protest the death of one man - whose killer was arrested and charged within two days of the incident?  There was an earlier case (2017) also in Hennepin County/Minneapolis where a woman who had reported a rape was shot and killed while attempting to communicate with the responding officers.  No protests, no looting, no arsons and no deaths related to the situation afterwards.  Also the officer was not charged for 8 months!  For what it is worth the officer was black and the victim was white.  

*That was what pulled up first - I know from past searchs that other years show much the same story.

Edited June 9, 2020 by Tabonga

[MrWunderful | 2,932]

6 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

After 51 pages all I learned is that some racism "doesn't count" and some lives "don't matter", if it doesn't fit into the agenda being pushed. 

Maybe you should work on your reading comprehension then. 

[Tabonga | 2,533]

10 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

After 51 pages all I learned is that some racism "doesn't count" and some lives "don't matter", if it doesn't fit into the agenda being pushed. 

Sometimes abstracts are the most revealing.

Edited June 8, 2020 by Tabonga

[NESfiend | 1,559]

@CodysGameRoom to your point about writing off racists, I understand the principle. But all that will do is divide and division is what fuels extremism. Most of the people pushing racist positions do not believe that they are in fact racist. Probably 99% or more. You are better off trying to educate them as to why things they say and positions they take at least come off as racist and convincing them they are better off not to be associated with that. They are more inclined to listen if you first show them some respect and treat them like intelligent people. 

Really relieved Biden came out and said he is not for defunding police. Thats an absurd idea. As someone who has dealt with departments who have had jaded histories with race relations throughout my career, the problem is everything is funded and managed at the local levels. I have run into decent cops who quit to become roofers because it pays more. People who do that job in my localities tend to be one extreme or the other. 1) Really dedicated people who will work for little money because they care about community 2) people who are qualified to do little else and will take low pay in exchange for power/respect. Its #2 where problems arise most and the constant turnover from low pay is problematic.

Policing should be a FED function nationally. If those people were well paid federal employees who got real training and education, it would be a much different picture today. There would be a lot more oversight and proactive approaches to addressing these issues. Municipalities and county govt's are underequipped to manage that function. And they don't have giant budgets. You get what you pay for. At 30k a year for a job you may get hurt or killed, you are going to have problems. I seriously get police reports (in certain areas) that look like the writer should not have been allowed to graduate high school. Not surprisingly, those people tend to be a part of the problem and wouldnt survive a fed takeover. 

[Silent Hill | 284]

2 hours ago, MrWunderful said:

 

But not one person has said anything positive about Trump, or how him being in charge has made America better. 
 

 

I’ve got no dog in the race, but here’s one very positive thing Trump did, specifically for HBCUs

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/theundefeated.com/features/trump-signs-executive-order-on-hbcus/amp/

 

Edit: Also signed this bill which highly impacted minorities

https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/how-first-step-act-became-law-and-what-happens-next

 

Edited June 9, 2020 by Silent Hill

[Estil | 1,291]

26 minutes ago, NESfiend said:

Most of the people pushing racist positions do not believe that they are in fact racist.

Actually that was true in the 60s/segregation era.  Many segregationists at the time insisted that they are not racist and don't have any real beef with blacks on a personal level, but felt that the right to choose whether or not to segregate is a personal/private/local matter between the business/school district/local gov't/whatever the case may be, and most definitely is none of the business of big federal gov't in Washington.  It was alright to be personally opposed to segregation and that if you didn't like segregation you could just integrate your own business or go to integrated schools. But not to impose such mortality on those who believe in and choose segregation.  There were those, both black (most notably Malcom X and earlier Marcus Garvey) and white who felt that integration would not really work and that ideally birds of a feather should flock together.

Edited June 9, 2020 by Estil

[Californication | 1,491]

45 minutes ago, NESfiend said:

@CodysGameRoom to your point about writing off racists, I understand the principle. But all that will do is divide and division is what fuels extremism. Most of the people pushing racist positions do not believe that they are in fact racist. Probably 99% or more. You are better off trying to educate them as to why things they say and positions they take at least come off as racist and convincing them they are better off not to be associated with that. They are more inclined to listen if you first show them some respect and treat them like intelligent people. 

Really relieved Biden came out and said he is not for defunding police. Thats an absurd idea. As someone who has dealt with departments who have had jaded histories with race relations throughout my career, the problem is everything is funded and managed at the local levels. I have run into decent cops who quit to become roofers because it pays more. People who do that job in my localities tend to be one extreme or the other. 1) Really dedicated people who will work for little money because they care about community 2) people who are qualified to do little else and will take low pay in exchange for power/respect. Its #2 where problems arise most and the constant turnover from low pay is problematic.

Policing should be a FED function nationally. If those people were well paid federal employees who got real training and education, it would be a much different picture today. There would be a lot more oversight and proactive approaches to addressing these issues. Municipalities and county govt's are underequipped to manage that function. And they don't have giant budgets. You get what you pay for. At 30k a year for a job you may get hurt or killed, you are going to have problems. I seriously get police reports (in certain areas) that look like the writer should not have been allowed to graduate high school. Not surprisingly, those people tend to be a part of the problem and wouldnt survive a fed takeover. 

Never heard about defunding the police before, but I just listend to a podcaster interview the guy that wrote the book on it. 

So what they are saying is that a police persons responsibilies have become so broad over the years that it is impossible for one person to be able to be able to respond to those situations effectively. 

Exm. Do we need police to respond to the homeless? Do we need police to be the primary responsders to situations with people that are developmentally disabled? Etc. .

Having a police person respond to a homeless person is a temporary solution. A police person has what options at their disposal? Arrest, citation,.... 

If instead you spend government resources on  finding/building housing, or hiring people specifically to respond to the homeless who understand their needs. You are actually trying to solve the problem instead of pushing it down the road. 

I'm not familiar with the issue, but the guy did make some compelling points.

 

[MrWunderful | 2,932]

5 minutes ago, Californication said:

Never heard about defunding the police before, but I just listend to a podcaster interview the guy that wrote the book on it. 

So what they are saying is that a police persons responsibilies have become so broad over the years that it is impossible for one person to be able to be able to respond to those situations effectively. 

Exm. Do we need police to respond to the homeless? Do we need police to be the primary responsders to situations with people that are developmentally disabled? Etc. .

Having a police person respond to a homeless person is a temporary solution. A police person has what options at their disposal? Arrest, citation,.... 

If instead you spend government resources on  finding/building housing, or hiring people specifically to respond to the homeless who understand their needs. You are actually trying to solve the problem instead of pushing it down the road. 

I'm not familiar with the issue, but the guy did make some compelling points.

 

Not to mention the fact that PDs are generally 1/3 of city budgets. 
 

 

58 minutes ago, Silent Hill said:

I’ve got no dog in the race, but here’s one very positive thing Trump did, specifically for HBCUs

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/theundefeated.com/features/trump-signs-executive-order-on-hbcus/amp/

 

Edit: Also signed this bill which highly impacted minorities

https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/how-first-step-act-became-law-and-what-happens-next

 

 

Those were a few of the things I actually already knew about

 

Just wanted to see if anyone dared google search “Trump administration accomplishments “  

[MrWunderful | 2,932]

To all the people using facts and numbers to tell us how racism and police brutality dont disproportionately affect  people Of color, do you know any Black people?
 

Do you know enough to ask them personally if they ever felt afraid of a police officer because of their skin color? Ask a Black father if hes ever had the discussion with his son about what to do if a racist cop pulls them over?

 

Curious if you would try to convince them of black on black crime.

 

 

[Link | 2,880]

1 hour ago, Tabonga said:

statistics

I think there is even a bigger context to review here. Look at the root causes. As you mentioned earlier, economic drivers can have racial impacts. There are more contacts so more contacts will go wrong — why are there more contacts? And why are there so many intraracial killings? 

 

Yes, sometimes police kill white people. Yes sometimes the officer is black. The numbers don’t line up and the specifics of the cases are often horifically mismatched regardless of how you justify it. Dylann Roof shot 9 people who were praying, police caught him and bought him a Whopper. James Holmes teargassed and shot up a movie theater full of people and was arrested without injury. Laquan McDonald, who was holding a knife, was 20-30 away from officers and walking further away, and the one who was somehow afraid for his life in that picture shot him in the back 16 times. Eric Garner got choked to death for selling loose cigarettes. Et cetera, et cetera.

The four I listed died in 2014-2016.

[Tabonga | 2,533]

2 minutes ago, Link said:

I think there is even a bigger context to review here. Look at the root causes. As you mentioned earlier, economic drivers can have racial impacts. There are more contacts so more contacts will go wrong — why are there more contacts? And why are there so many intraracial killings? 

 

Yes, sometimes police kill white people. Yes sometimes the officer is black. The numbers don’t line up and the specifics of the cases are often horifically mismatched regardless of how you justify it. 

It has pretty much always been the case that poorer areas in every society will have higher crime rates.  Which explains higher contact rates to a large extent.   I don't know why that murder rate is so high. But I do know that some people concerned about the deaths by police just flat out don't want to talk about the horrific murder rates of blacks on blacks and will go to great lengths to avoid the subject like the plague.

  If the people running the police departments  (and above them - the heads of city government, prosecuters etc.) were more proactive about dealing with problem cops from the get go it would go a long ways to preventing the killings. (Amy Klobuchar. for example, refused to prosecute 29 cases of police killings of civilians - she did this by shoveling them off to grand juries (which have the advantage of  making it look like you are doing - and it is very easy for prosecutors to influence by various chicaneries the final outcome.  By the time any conclusions are reached the case has often been forgotten and blowback (if any) is minimum.)  And how many cities have minority mayors and/or minority police chiefs and the problems still exist?  The key is not filling postions with minorities who are first and foremost concerned with going along with the government machines - but with ones who (of any stripe) who are first and foremost concerned with creating organizations that want to actually function effectively in the public arena.

The point about the white victim and the black cop was more about how cases should be handled in the same manner as much as possible (but not by whitewashing (no pun intended) the situation).   

[NESfiend | 1,559]

I have probably already got more into police issues than I should given how much it touches on my job. Im not going to get into more detail on that, but Ill just say this purely from a political strategy standpoint. If you are a Democrat and like the idea of pushing defunding police, you won't see @Estil and the other pro trump people discouraging you. If that idea became mainstream in the party, biden wouldn't be leading trump by 7 to 8 points. Luckily,  Biden is too smart for that. Had we picked Bernie or one of the other more left wing candidates I was afraid would pave the way for trump, they probably would embrace that to our detriment.

@MrWunderful has correctly pointed out trump is in real trouble because all those swing voters and some moderate Republicans gave him a shot the first time. That isn't happening this time. Unless we push ideas like defunding police. That would scare the crap out of a lot of those voters who appear to be with biden now. 

I have always said police forces and schools are simply too much responsibility to be left to localities. That should be fed territory.  The schools portion would go along way in eliminating systematic inequality and opportunity based on race and class. And why shouldn't people as important to our country as those categories make a decent wage and get federal benefits? I havent seen the study people have been referring to here, but I'd be willing to bet very few, if any, of the unarmed people shot were shot by ATF, DEA, etc. Thats not a coincidence. 

Edited June 9, 2020 by NESfiend

[Silent Hill | 284]

55 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

To all the people using facts and numbers to tell us how racism and police brutality dont disproportionately affect  people Of color, do you know any Black people?
 

Do you know enough to ask them personally if they ever felt afraid of a police officer because of their skin color? Ask a Black father if hes ever had the discussion with his son about what to do if a racist cop pulls them over?

 

Curious if you would try to convince them of black on black crime.

 

 

Definitely worth getting individuals perspective and reasoning*. I’m sure there’s some polling stats on that floating around. I’d actually be surprised if THEY didn’t mention black on black crime since the leading cause of death for young black males is homicide, a vast majority done by the hands of the same race. In contrast, the odds of being killed by police while unarmed are no better than being struck by lightning. 
 

Edit* - Especially between those who come from a two parent vs single parent household

Edited June 9, 2020 by Silent Hill

[Kguillemette | 1,612]

Blm is extremely important and relevant, but in desperate need of better leadership. There's no MLK, with his charisma and organizational skills while also a master of the PR game. He could have kept this under control and thus more effective. Candlelight vigils and Picketing, while wonderful, don't inspire real change like the civil disobedience MLK both organized himself and supported. Someone needs to step up!

[Reed Rothchild | 9,931]

Leadership is in short supply in America.

[NESfiend | 1,559]

23 minutes ago, Silent Hill said:

I’d actually be surprised if THEY didn’t mention black on black crime since the leading cause of death for young black males is homicide, a vast majority done by the hands of the same race. 

This is a shitty cop out. Like saying we shouldn't address a certain type of illness that causes death because cancer is more prevalent. And its just apples to oranges when you are comparing criminals who get charged and sentenced (with average sentences that exceed white offenders) to state actors who ordinarily don't even get charged. There are law enforcement officials at the state, local and fed level focused on black on black crime and its litigated in court. Police issues, not so much

Also, the problem with police having racist tendencies isn't limited to death. I see 19-20 year old black kids in court who ran from police. 10-15 cops and for some reason, even at 10-15 to 1 they had to turn that kids face into what looks like a soccer ball. Don't see that much with white kids and we got plenty of them running too. 

FINALLY, you want a real idea that everyone would embrace and would help? Mandatory body cams for every officer in the country. Everyone should be for transparency, even Estil! And all these police issues are coming to light because of cell phone videos. Body cams is where it should be coming from and would reveal way more. There isnt always someone around with a cell phone (i.e search warrant served, chases that go off road, etc.). Why do some departments want to wear them and others resist even if they are donated? Hmmmmmm.....

Edited June 9, 2020 by NESfiend