General Current Events/Political Discussion

[Tabonga | 2,533]

13 minutes ago, NESfiend said:

Using crap like this to attack Cody is completely unfair and unproductive. Its a very small percentage of extremists that don't represent the vast majority and you are smart enough to know that. That stuff is happening at NIGHT when the peaceful protestors are GONE. He doesn't compare you or everyone on the right to the white supremacists who support trump and show up carrying torches with arms drenched in swastika tattoos. Or the ones who stormed the Michigan state house with assault rifles to scare congressman and senators into agreeing to their agenda. Nor do you hear any liberal pushing the notion that they represent the norm in the right wing movement. That would be a childish way to argue. Cody is right it doesn't take away from the problem you choose not to acknowledge (racism). Its just deflecting and avoiding the issue the same way others do when they constantly remind us more black people kill black people than cops

Actually my initial post with the pictures was not directed at anyone - Cody responded of his own accord.  Please double check if you don't believe me, I did not compare Cody to anyone (at least in these exchanges). I don't consider myself on the right for what it is worth,  I have acknowledged racism but differ on the extent and the root causes of it. I never said it was all of the  protesters who did this - just pointing out that it happened (the truth often hurts - which is why it often draws venomous reactions rather than acknowledgement) and that the black     civil war soldiers were disrespected.  

I know you are a relative noob here - Cody and I have at each other frequently (no surprise) and have ackowledged with each other long ago that is just the way we react to each other in these threads  (And have made our peace (contradictory as that may sound) - it certainly doesn't carry over to other threads,.  i come from the older school where two people could go to a bar and discuss/argue politics and leave in an amiable manner.  I miss then more refined habits of old.  (Tip O'Neill and Reagan were pretty much always at odds politically but as Reagan said "they were friends after 6 pm."

 

[Tabonga | 2,533]

53 minutes ago, NESfiend said:

And at no point has he tried to justify that. He is talking about racism and you are talking about looting. We all agree no one should be looting. But you making the few extremists the example and equating that to Cody and the norm is poor judgment at best. And I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but focusing on that and not addressing what led to all this comes off as a bit, what's the word? Racist. 

You kinda left out the fact that I was responding to this:

"It doesn't make systemic racism and police brutality any less of an issue."

Nowhere did I say that the defacing of the monument made those issues lesser in importance (Cody implied it but I didn't state that at all).  We disagree on the extent of those things but that is a horse of a different color isn't it?

Tsk! Tsk!  More than somewhat implying I am a racist. You may as well go ahead and just say it - won't bother me since it is not the first time that has happened when someone doesn't want to act in a rationale (IMHO) manner.  Certainly easier than civil discourse.  Go ahead - it will likely make you feel better I am sure.

 

Edited June 11, 2020 by Tabonga

[Tabonga | 2,533]

43 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

I heard it was white people being paid by right-wing dark money groups who were doing more of the defacing, trying to give protestors a bad name. 

I have heard that a lot of the violence (breaking the windows but not actually looting) and spray painting etc  was done by outsiders - either Antifa (or other left wingers) or racist right wing groups (as non-sensical as that seems to be) - seems to depend on who is yacking.  I do remember the mayor of Minneapolis saying that the multitudinous problems were mostly caused by outside agitators - analysis of arrest records showed this was not the case,  One of those deals where there is no doubt a lot of misinfromation floating around.

 

[Californication | 1,491]

54 minutes ago, RegularGuyGamer said:

It wasn't Biden that said the hot sauce thing, he's not a quick enough thinker. It was Hilary in 2016. She did all that pandering and none of it paid off. 

I think nationalism gets mixed with patriotism and it becomes semantics. I truly believe most people who buy into Trump's rhetoric are white and consider themselves patriots.

Nationalism - identification with one's own nation and support for its interests, especially to the exclusion or detriment of the interests of other nations.

So to throw around the term white nationalist is carefully constructed to include more people than those that actually accept that idealogy.

They're Neo Nazis. They don't like Italians, Irish, Jews, hell even Catholics. The white nationalist term is just too soft and not condemning enough for the group that actually identify as such. 

Doing some word gymnastics there.

You think white people that promote the white race oabove others and kill americans are patriots?

[Estil | 1,291]

2 hours ago, Californication said:

They used their freedom of speech and their bully pulpit to put lives at risk and people have died because of them.

The one that immediately comes to mind for me is Jenny McCarthy and the rest of the anti-vax gang.  Those really DID put lives at risk and people HAVE died because of them.  And it really breaks my heart that there were those who would rather take the word of some c-list "celebrity" (at best) who probably tries to fool people with her Beatle last name sound-a-like than a qualified physician.  

[Estil | 1,291]

2 hours ago, Tabonga said:

 

More lives that didn't matter??

It shows that graffiti artists lives matter, doesn't that count?

[NESfiend | 1,556]

1 hour ago, Tabonga said:

You kinda left out the fact that I was responding to this:

"It doesn't make systemic racism and police brutality any less of an issue."

Nowhere did I say that the defacing of the monument made those issues lesser in importance (Cody implied it but I didn't state that at all).  We disagree on the extent of those things but that is a horse of a different color isn't it?

Tsk! Tsk!  More than somewhat implying I am a racist. You may as well go ahead and just say it - won't bother me since it is not the first time that has happened when someone doesn't want to act in a rationale (IMHO) manner.  Certainly easier than civil discourse.  Go ahead - it will likely make you feel better I am sure.

 

I'm not sure how to respond to this because I'm not sure what providing codys quote does except prove my point exactly. You aren't addressing what he is (racism). You are insisting on focusing solely on looters. Him saying black people have something to complain about and you saying essentially that there are bad black people who loot comes off as racist whether you see it or not. He never justified looting, so why is that all you want to talk about with him? Its not addressing what you quoted at all unless you mean to imply that its OK to be racist because they are looters. Whether that's your intent or not, its just reality that is how people are going to read it  

And no I'm not relatively noob. Maybe to this thread or site because its new, but I was active on Nintendo age for 5 or 6 years before it ended. 

Edited June 11, 2020 by NESfiend

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

29 minutes ago, Californication said:

Doing some word gymnastics there.

You think white people that promote the white race oabove others and kill americans are patriots?

Of course he doesn't.   He said that white Trump supporters by and large THINK they are "patriots".

[Tabonga | 2,533]

27 minutes ago, NESfiend said:

I'm not sure how to respond to this because I'm not sure what providing codys quote does except prove my point exactly. You aren't addressing what he is (racism). You are insisting on focusing solely on looters. Him saying black people have something to complain about and you saying essentially that they are bad black people who loot comes off as racist whether you see it or not. 

He was essentially saying that the defacing of the monuments (more properly my mentioning of it) didn't justify/negate whatever levels (my words) of systemic racism and police brutality are occurring.  Which I never did (justify those) -I put the pictures up to show the hypocrisy (rather than stupidity -noone is that stupid IMHO) since whoever did that was acting in a penultimate racist manner.   I turned that on its head by pointing out that "fighting" those things didn't justify another act of racism.

I never said it was black people who did this desecration.  I don't know what color they were - do you?  I do know that some of the videos showed more than a few black people looting - but not all.  There are likely videos that show more white people looting - I haven't seen them - but I have not been obsessively looking at looting videos either.  In any event I think that people (of any color) who loot (or burn buildings) are bad people - don't you?  

Edited June 11, 2020 by Tabonga

[Estil | 1,291]

The reason I've been "focusing only" on the looters is because they're the ones causing the trouble/damage!   I never brought up the demonstrators/protesters because they're just doing their First Amendment thing just as we always have since the country's beginning.  We need that kind of healthy free speech discourse where all viewpoints/ideas are at least given a fair chance to be heard out.  But what we don't need is a bunch of thugs/looters/vandals taking unfair advantage of George Floyd's murder (okay maybe it's not the legal definition but close enough) for their own selfish ends.  Like I mentioned before, I've never heard of any case where looting/vandalism/rioting was a good thing.

Edited June 11, 2020 by Estil

[NESfiend | 1,556]

2 minutes ago, Tabonga said:

He was essentially saying that the defacing of the monuments (more properly my mentioning of it) didn't justify/negate whatever (my word) systemic racism and police brutality.  Which I never did (justify those) -I put the pictures up to show the hypocrisy (rather than stupidity -noone is that stupid IMHO) since whoever did that was acting in a penultimate racist manner.   I turned that on its head by pointing out that "fighting" those things didn't justify another act of racism.

I never said it was black people who did this desecration.  I don't know what color they were - do you?  I do know that some of the videos showed more than a few black people looting - but not all.  There are likely videos that show more white people looting - I haven't seen them - but I have not been obsessively looking at looting videos either.  In any event I think that people (of any color) are bad people - don't you?  

The "more lives that didn't matter" quote under that photo comes off like this is what you associate with the BLM movement. The movement that Cody was talking about and you responded with that. Whether you meant that or not, it looks like racist shit. Cody, nor anyone else, had brought up anything about looting. So why bring it up in that context but not to imply that the BLM movement is a bunch of bs that is just an excuse to loot. That quote strongly implies that whether you meant it or not. Its racist on its face regardless of who wrote it 

[Tulpa | 3,703]

Chalk this up to another tweet that didn't age well.

[NESfiend | 1,556]

6 minutes ago, Estil said:

The reason I've been "focusing only" on the looters is because they're the ones causing the trouble/damage!   I never brought up the demonstrators/protesters because they're just doing their First Amendment thing just as we always have since the country's beginning.  We need that kind of healthy free speech discourse where all viewpoints/ideas are at least given a fair chance to be heard out.  But what we don't need is a bunch of thugs/looters/vandals taking unfair advantage of George Floyd's murder (okay maybe it's not the legal definition but close enough) for their own selfish ends.  Like I mentioned before, I've never heard of any case where looting/vandalism/rioting was a good thing.

We don't need looters, but not one person has ever disagreed with that. So why do people on the right want to avoid the real discussion and just focus on looting? 60 pages of replies from people all over the political spectrum. Not one person has said looting  is cool or ok. So why is that all some of the people on the right want to discuss when there is no debate about it. Or you want to talk about how more blacks kill blacks then cops. Again, no one debating that. Why is that the response to a debate about racism? It serves no legitimate purpose and does have racist connotations whether thats the intent or not. 

And yes, @Tabonga expressing concern over a defaced monument, but expressing none over the long list of black people that we have actually watched get murdered on film also comes off as racist. "More lives that didn't matter" reads like shit in the overall context. If you aren't racist, and I have no idea if you are, you need to be more self-aware of how what you say will come off to other people 

Edited June 11, 2020 by NESfiend

[Estil | 1,291]

1 minute ago, NESfiend said:

We don't need looters, but not one person has ever disagreed with that. So why do people on the right want to avoid the real discussion and just focus on looting. 60 pages of replies from people all over the political spectrum. Not one person has said looting  is cool or ok. So why is that all some of the people on the right want to discuss when there is no debate about it. Or you want to talk about how more blacks kill blacks then cops. Again, no one debating that. Why is that the response to a debate about racism? It serves no legitimate purpose and does have racist connotations whether thats the intent or not. 

No one said looting is cool or okay here at this forum, but I'm talking about the ones out there who are trying to justify/rationalize it...until of course it happens to them personally. I think I've made most of my overall thoughts on racism/discrimination pretty well known...is there something I'm leaving out?

[NESfiend | 1,556]

Just now, Estil said:

No one said looting is cool or okay here at this forum, but I'm talking about the ones out there who are trying to justify/rationalize it...until of course it happens to them personally. I think I've made most of my overall thoughts on racism/discrimination pretty well known...is there something I'm leaving out?

I just haven't seen anyone justifying it so its perplexing why that is the focus. And me quoting you was probably a dumb choice when I am mostly still arguing with tabonga. The more lives that don't matter quote and outrage over a statue in this context is pretty maddening. When you have talked about looting, its been in the context of people losing their livelihoods and I am a lot more sensitive to that than a piece of government property with historical significance. 

[Tabonga | 2,533]

4 minutes ago, NESfiend said:

The "more lives that didn't matter" quote under that photo comes off like this is what you associate with the BLM movement. The movement that Cody was talking about and you responded with that. Whether you meant that or not, it looks like racist shit. Cody, nor anyone else, had brought up anything about looting. So why bring it up in that context but not to imply that the BLM movement is a bunch of bs that is just an excuse to loot. That quote strongly implies that whether you meant it or not. Its racist on its face regardless of who wrote it 

That is similar to a  line I have used before - particularly in reference to the black victims of the protests/lootings/burnings - I have yet to see any of the black lives matter (and/or their syncophants) crowd  stage a protest against the people who did those.  (Either individually or collectively.)  I believe that this is because it would be politically inconvenient and therefore ignored rather than addressed,) 

Like it or not the protests/lootings/arsons have all intertwined in that the lootings/arsons wouldn't be occurring without the protests. And there are some who justify the latter two as a form of inherent righteous indignation - so they are all just protests in their world view.  In any event the crowds/mobs* don't wear signs so you can tell who is/was protesting but not looting/burning.  Nor tell who was looting/burning but not protesting.  

There are some things that I consider problematic about the BLM group - but that is another topic alltogether.   And I don't believe I mentioned BLM anywhere in these dialogues until this post - let alone that they were looting.  So anything you are postulating is perforce made of whole cloth. 

*They are a crowd when protesting but a mob once the looting and burning commences.

[NESfiend | 1,556]

8 minutes ago, Tabonga said:

That is similar to a  line I have used before - particularly in reference to the black victims of the protests/lootings/burnings - I have yet to see any of the black lives matter (and/or their syncophants) crowd  stage a protest against the people who did those.  (Either individually or collectively.)  I believe that this is because it would be politically inconvenient and therefore ignored rather than addressed,) 

Like it or not the protests/lootings/arsons have all intertwined in that the lootings/arsons wouldn't be occurring without the protests. And there are some who justify the latter two as a form of inherent righteous indignation - so they are all just protests in their world view.  In any event the crowds/mobs* don't wear signs so you can tell who is/was protesting but not looting/burning.  Nor tell who was looting/burning but not protesting.  

There are some things that I consider problematic about the BLM group - but that is another topic alltogether.   And I don't believe I mentioned BLM anywhere in these dialogues until this post - let alone that they were looting.  So anything you are postulating is perforce made of whole cloth. 

*They are a crowd when protesting but a mob once the looting and burning commences.

Perforce made with whole cloth? Ok? And I am sure not still what to make of the above. So they shouldn't be protesting racism because some of them loot? Or because they don't protest the people who do takes away their right to protest black people's deaths? You aren't getting anywhere but digging your hole deeper and making yourself look bad in a community you care about. I will end this because its only contributing to you making this all about looting and making yourself look dumb and racist in the process whether you know it or not. Just pretend I said whatever you need to hear to be able to look yourself in the mirror and not think your post was racist. I am sure that will not be hard for you. 

[Estil | 1,291]

28 minutes ago, NESfiend said:

I just haven't seen anyone justifying it so its perplexing why that is the focus. And me quoting you was probably a dumb choice when I am mostly still arguing with tabonga. The more lives that don't matter quote and outrage over a statue in this context is pretty maddening. When you have talked about looting, its been in the context of people losing their livelihoods and I am a lot more sensitive to that than a piece of government property with historical significance. 

Well I don't like the idea of people just taking the law into their own hands and just helping themselves to tearing down statues and whatnot either but yes, that's been my overriding concern all along and why I more align with the All Lives Matter, however unpopular a viewpoint that maybe be around here.  I don't like or want to see any innocent people get hurt or their stuff destroyed or their lives half ruined or whatever.  All of it is sad and tragic and none of it is any good.  

[Tabonga | 2,533]

19 minutes ago, NESfiend said:

And yes, @Tabonga expressing concern over a defaced monument, but expressing none over the long list of black people that we have actually watched get murdered on film also comes off as racist. "More lives that didn't matter" reads like shit in the overall context. If you aren't racist, and I have no idea if you are, you need to be more self-aware of how what you say will come off to other people 

I am big into history - so stuff like this is important to me. The topic I brought up is just about the monument and the line is in reference to how many victims are overlooked* (deliberately) such as the black victims of the protests/lootings/arsons, the white victims of the protests/lootings/arsons, several thousand black victims murdered by other blacks**, whites killed by blacks, blacks killed by whites, whites killed by cops, cops killed by whites, cops killed by blacks -  the various lists make me nauseous to be honest with you.  (Doesn't really matter how many are caught on film and how many aren't  - dead is dead. )

Quite clearly you have a perception of me.  People's  perceptions are often  formed by what they want to see - someone disagrees with them it must be because they are racist - it is easier than arguing against points that are different than what the person holds.   To reinforce that amything that the other person says can (and will) be twisted to fit that view.  

 " you need to be more self-aware of how what you say will come off to other people ."  The same might well be said of you - I choose not to elaborate since this really is not the place to delve into such murky waters that will serve no useful purpose except to likey exacerbate the hostility I feel lurking (barely) beneath the surface here.

 

[MrWunderful | 2,932]

Does Trump think that just ignoring the increasing virus cases is going to help him?

 

Im calling it now- his speech in Tulsa (on June 19th nonetheless- an elite level racist troll enough to give Wally George A  stiffy) Is going to cause a huge virus breakout .

 

A bunch of sweaty Maga folks screaming “Lock her (him?Them?) up! Lock her up!” All in Super close proximity? I can smell the copenhagen, miller lite and BO already  

 

Im sure it will be an antifa socialist blasphemer on Soros’ payroll doing it to harm real american patriots though. Or maybe people who kneel in protest, they might help

[Hammerfestus | 4,100]

 

[Estil | 1,291]

2 minutes ago, Tabonga said:

I am big into history - so stuff like this is important to me. The topic I brought up is just about the monument and the line is in reference to how many victims are overlooked* (deliberately) such as the black victims of the protests/lootings/arsons, the white victims of the protests/lootings/arsons, several thousand black victims murdered by other blacks**, whites killed by blacks, blacks killed by whites, whites killed by cops, cops killed by whites, cops killed by blacks -  the various lists make me nauseous to be honest with you.  (Doesn't really matter how many are caught on film and how many aren't  - dead is dead. )

This is exactly what I'm talking about why I could never align with or go along with the expectations of the BLM movement.  I just can't get behind this idea of people being split up into groups and having this competition over who is more suppressed than who and which groups should be given more or less special treatment and which groups should be considered the bad groups who are perceived to have done nothing but get in the way of the more scrappy underdog sort of groups.  Things like police brutality and discrimination and bigotry is not something we can just dismiss as a "black people's problem"...these kind of things can happen to anyone.  As I like to say, what if one day it's you?

And let's not forget this timeless classic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_...

[Tabonga | 2,533]

16 minutes ago, NESfiend said:

Perforce made with whole cloth? Ok? And I am sure not still what to make of the above. So they shouldn't be protesting racism because some of them loot? Or because they don't protest the people who do takes away their right to protest black people's deaths? You aren't getting anywhere but digging your hole deeper and making yourself look bad in a community you care about. I will end this because its only contributing to you making this all about looting and making yourself look dumb and racist in the process whether you know it or not. Just pretend I said whatever you need to hear to be able to look yourself in the mirror and not think your post was racist. I am sure that will not be hard for you. 

I am not sure who the they you are referring to is - protestors, BLM? (They are not the same are they?)  I am not "making this all about" the looting - you seem to be doing this (again mostly from whole cloth) on your own.  So the fixation is yours IMHO.

 I am not saying anyone should not protest - but that they need to (by and large) follow the laws - and that they should not loot/burn.  I am saying that the deaths of others (in this case blacks (but whites have died too)) that are tied to the  protests/lootings/arsons seem to being overlooked since it would be rather embarrassing to admit that the chains of  acitivities resulted in the deaths of the some of the people they claim to be concerned with/about..

And quite frankly I will always look bad  to the twits (IMHO obviously)  who either  disagree with me and/or (as is sometimes the case) can't follow my argumentation(s).   The people I do get along with* here will ignore this drivel and communicate with me as usual. 

[NESfiend | 1,556]

5 minutes ago, Tabonga said:

 The people I do get along with* here will ignore this drivel and communicate with me as usual. 

You are right. You know people here better than I do. Ill wait patiently for any and all who want to come to your defense and say "more lives that didnt matter" doesn't have a racist look to it at all. Ill wait here patiently and I'm sure they will be filing in for you. 

@CodysGameRoom you want to start? 

Edited June 11, 2020 by NESfiend

[Kguillemette | 1,606]

2 hours ago, MrWunderful said:

I heard it was white people being paid by right-wing dark money groups who were doing more of the defacing, trying to give protestors a bad name. 

I've seen so many hair brained crack pot batty nuts conspiracy theories on the subject from both sides that at least one of them has to be real!

But seriously, Blm is so disorganized that it hardly qualifies as a movement anymore. As important as it is, it has started to devolve into a anti goverment/anti conservatrump slogan. Blm has allowed Trump and right wing crackpot pundits to brand it as such, and the anti trump wagon is so strong it has been embraced in this way! It needs to be torn down and restarted. Blm is barely more credible than a meme now.

There are so many wonderful vigils and pickets, but the kind of civil disobedience needed to institute real change keeps turning into violence and straight vandalism. Oooooh, people are so brave! They put on masks and spray paint buildings!  That'll show em! One riot in mn was plenty, and none were productive. In fact they were the opposite, because now the common talking point among conservatrumps is rioters/vandals/looters= protesters. The rioting and vandalism was not denounced by Blm nearly loudly enough. MLK would have been all over it!

I have some ideas. I need to flesh them out a bit, but it would involve the organized spamming of offenders. It's tough to do on social media, since that can be turned off. The way to affect any real change is to lawfully hit people in the wallet. Not unlawfully.