General Current Events/Political Discussion

[fcgamer | 5,015]

59 minutes ago, CodysGameRoom said:

What a shitty take. Dude doesn't deserve to go blind in one eye because he stayed out late. Punishment doesn't fit the crime here.

 

Wow, doubling down on possibly the worst take I've ever seen on this board?

Have some fucking compassion, jesus christ. 

Punishment might not fit the crime, we already discussed that a few posts back. 

With that said, the guy broke curfew, he broke the law. If you break the law, you risk consequences. If there are no consequences to breaking the law, no one will follow the law, and oftentimes it will lead to shitty outcomes for society, which could have been avoided if everyone followed the law. 

If you break the law and speed, sure it may not seem like a big deal to most, unless you wrap yourself and your loved one around a tree, or you hit an innocent person that's trying to cross the road.

The curfew in this situation was likely there due to the protests, to try to maintain order. Imo nothing wrong with that, the guy decided to take the risk and break curfew, sadly sometimes the outcomes are not good when people take risks. It's a hard lesson to be learnt but it goes back to accountability. 

[captmorgandrinker | 1,654]

15 hours ago, fcgamer said:

Never once did I say that, please go back and check. All I said was that accountability goes both ways. This guy felt he was above the law and willingly chose to break curfew. Now he lost an eye, which is directly related to the fact that he chose to break the law.

Is losing an eye in response to breaking curfew a bit much? Perhaps. However, it doesn't change the fact that if this guy followed the rules, he'd still have his eye. Period. So yeah, accountability. Then again these days, no one wants to acknowledge their part in the situation.

I get that, but this is more of a "does the punishment fit the crime" situation.   

If he was charging at the officer, then he's lucky he only got a rubber bullet.    If he's just milling about, should only be an arrest or citation.

  

45 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Punishment might not fit the crime, we already discussed that a few posts back. 

With that said, the guy broke curfew, he broke the law. If you break the law, you risk consequences. If there are no consequences to breaking the law, no one will follow the law, and oftentimes it will lead to shitty outcomes for society, which could have been avoided if everyone followed the law. 

If you break the law and speed, sure it may not seem like a big deal to most, unless you wrap yourself and your loved one around a tree, or you hit an innocent person that's trying to cross the road.

The curfew in this situation was likely there due to the protests, to try to maintain order. Imo nothing wrong with that, the guy decided to take the risk and break curfew, sadly sometimes the outcomes are not good when people take risks. It's a hard lesson to be learnt but it goes back to accountability. 

There's also a difference between doing 75 in a 65 (like this guy) or 125 in a 65.   Should the officers use the PIT maneuver on your car if you're doing 10 over?

[CodysGameRoom | 2,014]

51 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

If you break the law and speed, sure it may not seem like a big deal to most, unless you wrap yourself and your loved one around a tree, or you hit an innocent person that's trying to cross the road.

I guess the officers better start cutting off the foot of anyone who gets pulled over for speeding then. 

[fcgamer | 5,015]

@captmorgandrinker : Whether the punishment was a bit heavy handed or not has nothing to do with accountability though. By breaking the law or going into a risky situation, one should go into it knowing that there could be consequences, whether minor or severe. Accountability folks .

[fcgamer | 5,015]

2 minutes ago, CodysGameRoom said:

I guess the officers better start cutting off the foot of anyone who gets pulled over for speeding then. 

Sure, whatever. 

 

[fcgamer | 5,015]

I'll provide an example to demonstrate my feelings on the matter, since everyone else just gets emotional about the "poor victim" :

My friend and I like to go urban exploring. He's from the UK, I'm from the USA. We both go exploring here locally in Taiwan.

Urban exploration is generally illegal. I may view it as a harmless act, a victimless crime, but that doesn't change the fact that it's illegal. Period. Similarly, depending on the state of the buildings, it could be dangerous.

So anytime my mate and I go on a new adventure, we both go in realising the following:

1. Either or both of us could get seriously injured, or perhaps even die.

2. Either or both of us could get arrested, and subsequently fined, jailed, or deported. No ifs, ands, or buts.

That is a risk we recognise, and likewise, that is a risk we are willing to accept, any time we go out exploring. To get deported over this, is that a bit heavy handed? Well I feel it is, but it's a possibility, which I am intelligent enough to recognise, and similarly, if my day would ever come, I'd own it and recognise my own role in the situation.

Accountability. This guy didn't end up half blind from following the rules. 

 

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

15 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

@captmorgandrinker : Whether the punishment was a bit heavy handed or not has nothing to do with accountability though. By breaking the law or going into a risky situation, one should go into it knowing that there could be consequences, whether minor or severe. Accountability folks .

It has everything to do with it, because now the situation has presented the cop as potentially "unaccountable" if they aren't held liable for their bad actions.

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

8 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

 

Accountability. This guy didn't end up half blind from following the rules. 

 

You're right, he ended up half blind from a cop that probably didn't properly follow the rules.

Ending up half blind is NOT a remotely reasonable expectation for "accountability" for violating curfew.

A ticket/citation is a reasonable expectation of accountability.

[fcgamer | 5,015]

1 minute ago, arch_8ngel said:

It has everything to do with it, because now the situation has presented the cop as potentially "unaccountable" if they aren't held liable for their bad actions.

So the bloke shouldn't be held accountable yet the officer should? If the bloke was following the rules, this never would have happened.

[fcgamer | 5,015]

2 minutes ago, arch_8ngel said:

You're right, he ended up half blind from a cop that probably didn't properly follow the rules.

Ending up half blind is NOT a remotely reasonable expectation for "accountability" for violating curfew.

A ticket/citation is a reasonable expectation of accountability.

Yup, go on and keep trying to justify why it's okay not to follow the law.

You honestly think this situation was the dude was just taking a stroll down the street, before suddenly a rubber bullet wizzed into his eye? No warning, no nothing? I honestly don't believe that for a minute.

 

[captmorgandrinker | 1,654]

18 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

@captmorgandrinker : Whether the punishment was a bit heavy handed or not has nothing to do with accountability though. By breaking the law or going into a risky situation, one should go into it knowing that there could be consequences, whether minor or severe. Accountability folks .

What sets us apart from the animals is the ability to reason.   When that disappears we're no better than they are.  

Here's the thing- people break laws all the time.   I'm sure if somebody told that dude that he'd get shot in the eye for just being outside he wouldn't have done it.   The reason I do 10 over instead of 25+ over the speed limit is that I'm willing to accept the consequences for 10 over BECAUSE THEY'RE REASONABLE. 

  

Just now, fcgamer said:

Yup, go on and keep trying to justify why it's okay not to follow the law.

You honestly think this situation was the dude was just taking a stroll down the street, before suddenly a rubber bullet wizzed into his eye? No warning, no nothing? I honestly don't believe that for a minute.

 

I don't find it that outlandish these days in this country.   

[Magus | 169]

14 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

 

Accountability. This guy didn't end up half blind from following the rules. 

 

You realize accountability works both ways right? The cops are also supposed to be accountable for their actions and for how they enforce the law, who they enforce it on, and to what degree. 

Breaking curfew to peacefully protest should not equate to losing an eye. And the cop very likely violated protocol doing so. It could have been worse and killed him and took more than just an eye. 

Nobody is saying the guy shouldn't be held accountable for breaking curfew. It's to what degree that punishment is for the crime being committed. 

You are essentially saying if you break curfew expect to lose an eye or worse and it's all your fault for breaking the law, and the cops have no accountability because you started it, that's a terrible and dangerous way of looking at it IMO. 

 

Edited June 15, 2020 by Magus

[fcgamer | 5,015]

Just now, captmorgandrinker said:

What sets us apart from the animals is the ability to reason.   When that disappears we're no better than they are.  

Here's the thing- people break laws all the time.   I'm sure if somebody told that dude that he'd get shot in the eye for just being outside he wouldn't have done it.   The reason I do 10 over instead of 25+ over the speed limit is that I'm willing to accept the consequences for 10 over BECAUSE THEY'RE REASONABLE. 

That's right. But without some accountability, society just turns into chaos. I see it every day driving / riding / commuting in Taiwan. People parked in the middle of the street, people driving the wrong way in the lane, five cars turning left at as a light turns to red, etc. Victimless crime? Sure, tell that to the people who were paralyzed from the accident, or who died just crossing the zebra crossing on green. Yeah, victimless crime.

If we have laws but they aren't enforced, society can break into chaos. I see that first hand, every single day. 

Did this guy deserve to go blind? No. I never said he did. Likewise though, he should have known going into it that from breaking the law, risks could happen (see my posts about urban ex above). And then in the current state of alleged police brutality, he should have known even better. So he therefore should own and recognise his mistake, he is partially responsible for his situation.

[fcgamer | 5,015]

7 minutes ago, Magus said:

You realize accountability works both ways right? The cops are also supposed to be accountable for their actions and for how they enforce the law, who they enforce it on, and to what degree. 

Breaking curfew to peacefully protest should not equate to losing an eye. And the cop very likely violated protocol doing so. It could have been worse and killed him and took more than just an eye. 

Nobody is saying the guy shouldn't be held accountable for breaking curfew. It's to what degree that punishment is for the crime being committed. 

You are essentially saying if you break curfew expect to lose an eye or worse and it's all your fault for breaking the law, and the cops have no accountability because you started it, that's a terrible and dangerous way of looking at it IMO. 

 

No, I am saying that if you don't follow the rules or regulations, you shouldn't go crying to mommy if something bad happens to you. You should own it and recognise that if you would have followed the rules, that wouldn't have happened.

 

[Tulpa | 3,715]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javert

[CodysGameRoom | 2,014]

@fcgamer There's no excuse or example or justification you can say, do, or make that will prove it was ok for this guy to get shot in the eye with a rubber bullet, making him blind in that eye, for staying out late. So maybe just stop with your holier than thou lack of empathy hateful shit.

Edited June 15, 2020 by CodysGameRoom

[fcgamer | 5,015]

5 minutes ago, CodysGameRoom said:

@fcgamer There's no excuse or example or justification you can say, do, or make that will prove it was ok for this guy to get shot in the eye with a rubber bullet, making him blind in that eye, for staying out late. So maybe just stop with your holier than thou lack of empathy hateful shit.

Sure thing pops, tell me another good one

[captmorgandrinker | 1,654]

19 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

That's right. But without some accountability, society just turns into chaos. I see it every day driving / riding / commuting in Taiwan. People parked in the middle of the street, people driving the wrong way in the lane, five cars turning left at as a light turns to red, etc. Victimless crime? Sure, tell that to the people who were paralyzed from the accident, or who died just crossing the zebra crossing on green. Yeah, victimless crime.

 

That's a gigantic jump in logic.   I'll bet you're a blast at parties.

[fcgamer | 5,015]

6 minutes ago, captmorgandrinker said:

That's a gigantic jump in logic.   I'll bet you're a blast at parties.

Yup, sure am. And are you by chance the guy that's blaming everyone else for what happened

[captmorgandrinker | 1,654]

1 minute ago, fcgamer said:

Yup, sure am. And are you by chance the guy that's blaming everyone else for what happened

No, I'm the one that wants bad cops weeded out as soon as fucking possible because I know way too many good ones.

But you keep beating your "I'm the victim" drum because a bunch of asians called you "whitey" in a restaurant once.

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

55 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

So the bloke shouldn't be held accountable yet the officer should? If the bloke was following the rules, this never would have happened.

"The bloke" didn't commit violence or harm anyone.

The officer shot a person in the face for a fairly minor act of civil disobedience.

If officers were better trained, and better behaved, none of this would be happening, either...

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

42 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

No, I am saying that if you don't follow the rules or regulations, you shouldn't go crying to mommy if something bad happens to you. You should own it and recognise that if you would have followed the rules, that wouldn't have happened.

 

This is quite possibly the dumbest possible retort you could come up with on this topic.

"Rules and regulations" should have proportional consequences for breaking them.

And when properly applied by the rule-of-law, those consequences, when permanent, are decided by the courts, not some cop in the heat of the moment.

 

 

 

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

1 hour ago, fcgamer said:

Yup, go on and keep trying to justify why it's okay not to follow the law.

You honestly think this situation was the dude was just taking a stroll down the street, before suddenly a rubber bullet wizzed into his eye? No warning, no nothing? I honestly don't believe that for a minute.

 

Go on and keep trying to justify why it is OK for a cops to maim people over minor offenses.

You honestly think this situation was the cop following all of their protocols and training before shooting some non-violent and unarmed person in the face?  I honestly don't believe that for a minute.

 

EDIT: and there are MANY examples in the current protests of bystanders being shot/injured by police misusing force with "less lethal" ammunition.

 

Edited June 15, 2020 by arch_8ngel

[fcgamer | 5,015]

14 minutes ago, captmorgandrinker said:

No, I'm the one that wants bad cops weeded out as soon as fucking possible because I know way too many good ones.

But you keep beating your "I'm the victim" drum because a bunch of asians called you "whitey" in a restaurant once.

Grow the f up dude. Yeah I get it, you want to be progressive and fight the good fight, stand for change. I'm with you there, I agree we need to fight for equality; however, denouncing others' inequality as "fake" or "not real" doesn't add to the cause. To remind you:

"First off, I have never, and will never try to say that I am worse off than the black population in the USA; however, I definitely am one of the few white people on this board who has had the unique opportunity to have truly experienced racism, as a white person.

The situation is more than just constantly being referred to by your skin colour, rather than anything else, when at a restaurant. A few examples off the top of my head:

Finances. Foreigners here have a huge difficulty getting credit cards, and when they do, it's for a low amount of $400usd maximum limit or something like that. Even if the foreigner has been living in the country for 20 years. Contrast that to the limits on cards for Taiwanese university students, 2-3k or whatever.

We take it a step further, most banks won't offer us loans, even if we've lived here for 10 years, 20 years, whatever. I was literally laughed out of a bank once for asking, the teller said "Why would a foreigner even need a loan?" The banks that offer loans offer a paltry sum. So a foreigner that has lived here for years can't even buy a house. I mean, what will I do, save money for 20 years and then walk to the bank with briefcases if money, and pay in full?

No house, you can't get a car. Well you could, but you'd have no place to park it, unless you wanted to pay large fees at a parking garage somewhere.

Then again, the reason we're told we are denied all this is because "you can disappear overnight" . Then again, literally the vast majority of Taiwanese have two or three passports...ummm...

Yet for foreigners to obtain Taiwan passport is basically unheard of. The most we get is basically equivalent to a green card. No big deal, right?

Well when masks first started getting rationed here, you had to buy them online. They designed the software so that our cards were not compatible, so we had to all buy card scanners and use our national health cards instead, if we wanted masks.

Speaking of COVID-19, yeah, there were tons of reports of foreigners being denied access to clubs, restaurants, etc over the ordeal. Yet aside from a French guy, ALL of the imported virus cases came from Taiwanese working or traveling abroad. Yet they deflected it back onto us.

Work conditions? So up until last year, I got no paid personal days. Things only changed because the five foreigners at my job threatened to walk if we didn't get annual pay raises and paid personal days. Now I get 1 paid day off for every year I've worked there...locals, by law, start off with seven paid personal days, then it increases I'm not sure how much, year by year. Why don't more foreigners fight about this? Because we will just be fired and blacklisted from jobs, essentially this is how it operates around the country (no paid personal days for foreigners) even though the law says otherwise...but if you ask people, "oh, no that law doesn't protect your kind".

Then there's the treatment on the streets, your students' parents blanking you, only seeing you as a necessary evil so that their children can advance in life, not seeing you as a human with feelings.

And the list goes on. And on. And on. ..

No, I was never lynched, no I might not have it as bad as blacks in the USA, but don't anyone ever try to tell me that I haven't experienced racism, or try to diminish my experiences since they don't fit into the progressive adgendas."

 

[fcgamer | 5,015]

1 minute ago, arch_8ngel said:

Go on and keep trying to justify why it is OK for a cops to maim people over minor offenses.

You honestly think this situation was the cop following all of their protocols and training before shooting some non-violent and unarmed person in the face?  I honestly don't believe that for a minute.

 

Your head is squarely up your own ass on this issue.

Perhaps, but honestly, everyone's heads are squarely up their asses in this thread

We all see what we want to see, and try to diminish the rest. Not me, not you, not Cody, not Captain Morgan, rather all of us. Do you disagree here?