General Current Events/Political Discussion

[cartman | 195]

12 minutes ago, CodysGameRoom said:

@cartman America isn't that shitty, you are just voicing your racist rhetoric in the wrong place. This video game forum isn't going to agree with you. Come visit the country and there are plenty of places you can go where you can spout your nonsense.

@Gloves , I already tried the house on fire analogy with @Estil earlier in the thread. He didn't get it then either. He says it doesn't make sense but actually he just doesn't understand it. He actually AGREES in the analogy, saying "of course you would put the house on fire out first". But then he can't grasp how it equates to Black Lives Matter. It's either a case of just not getting through with it, or willful ignorance.

By the way, Black Lives Matter.

 

You've had no case for your claims that's not racism that's just reality.

[Estil | 1,291]

19 minutes ago, CodysGameRoom said:

I want you to think about this objectively. You are extremely upset because they tore down a statue of George Washington and set an American Flag on fire. 

I get that. Those symbols are really important to you right? If there was some statue or monument that disgraced George Washington or the American Flag, you would probably want that removed as soon as possible right?

It's because symbolism is extremely important in this country. Others in this thread have said, "they are just symbols, I don't care". I actually share that opinion. However, the MAJORITY of the country takes symbolism extremely important. "These colors don't run". American flags. Christians and crosses. Etc.

This is why bad symbols need removed. Not for you or I's sake. For the sake of others that it IS important to. Confederate generals, Christopher Columbus, etc. Hopefully, they will all be gone soon. For the sake of others. Don't complain about them being offended. Have empathy towards them because they are.

You would assume incorrectly.  Did you not see my repeated posts regarding how important freedom of speech is?  I believe there was somewhere near where one of the Founding Fathers statues got torn down/vandalized has a statue of Lenin nearby.  I say, you wanna a statue of Lenin for whatever reason, go for it.  If there was a statue/monument that "disgraced GW or the flag", again, totally fair free speech game.  My outrage/contempt was for the people who unilaterally are tearing down/vandalizing statues and other things...and the fact that in this case they not only used GW but wrapped his head in an American flag and set it on fire on top of all that, wow talk about the text book definition of putting gasoline on a fire!  Shoot they may have used gasoline for that fire!

If anything gets "removed", it must be done through the proper legal channels and done in the right peaceful way by the will of the people and/or their duly elected officials.  And while we're on the subject of Columbus, does he have anything good left going for him at all, besides of course how in fourteen hundred ninety two, Columbus got us a day off of skewl!   I mean he not only never landed in North America, only "touched base" in northern South America on the third voyage, he wasn't even the first European explorer (I think everyone knows about the Vikings/Indians thing by now) to reach there! (look it up).  Up until a couple generations ago he was right there with George and Abe (I mean Columbo and GW do have their own holidays) but boy I can't recall any historical figure go that far down from hero to villain in such a short time!

Edited June 20, 2020 by Estil

[Estil | 1,291]

22 minutes ago, CodysGameRoom said:

I get that. Those symbols are really important to you right? 

No, those symbols are important to nearly all Americans.  We would not have this country without them and many others.  How was it that one country singer famously said:

Now I don't mind them switchin' sides and standing up for things that they believe in...but when they're burning down our country hoss they're walking on the fightin' side of me...

[cartman | 195]

22 minutes ago, Estil said:

You know i wish I could find that one YT video of this conservative commentator guy (I think that's what he was) who was attempting to interview a group of protesters who were chanting "Cops and the Klan go hand in hand...Cops and the Klan go hand in hand..." to which the guy did his own chant which matched the rhythm of theirs, "I do not like Green Eggs and Ham!  I do not like them Sam I Am!"  

It wouldn't surprise me at all. And i'm not even defending the police like that it's very possible that training and methodology should change somewhere and they should be held accountable for wrongdoings. I can agree partially with some sentiments floating around but some people man they just take from there and run with injecting all kinds of conclusions and "truths" as they see fit.

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

44 minutes ago, Estil said:

No, those symbols are important to nearly all Americans.  We would not have this country without them and many others.  How was it that one country singer famously said:

Now I don't mind them switchin' sides and standing up for things that they believe in...but when they're burning down our country hoss they're walking on the fightin' side of me...

People that defend arbitrary man-made symbols of our country with religious fervor need to reassess their views, IMO.

The jingoism that goes with so much of our symbology is deeply problematic in how it leads defenders of those symbols to ignore what is being said when those symbols end up in the cross-hairs of protest, because they seem to give those symbols the kind of blind reverence that goes with religious indoctrination.

That isn't healthy for discourse, and it makes it practically impossible for them to actually listen to disagreement. 

[Hammerfestus | 4,100]

Ok @cartman you have a lot to say about US politics.  But why don’t we talk about the way you Dutch treat the Sami?

[Strange | 1,727]

1 hour ago, Estil said:

If anything gets "removed", it must be done through the proper legal channels and done in the right peaceful way by the will of the people and/or their duly elected officials.

That goes against the very blueprint of this country. We’ve been doing the opposite since colonial times.

People are acting like this civil unrest is new for America, as if this is the first generation to do these things. Far from it.

Why do we romanticize our ancestors toppling an oppressive system but we aren’t allowed to do it today?

I guess when they taught us in school that the people have a right to change a government that is no longer serving them, they were hoping it would only stick with the kids who thought it applies to a slightly left leaning government.

[Estil | 1,291]

Just now, The Strangest said:

Why do we romanticize our ancestors toppling an oppressive system but we aren’t allowed to do it today?

You're talking about when our ancestors did so during the American Revolution/Declaration of Independence and all that right?  And yes we do have the right to change a government that is no longer serving them...at the ballot box.

[cartman | 195]

7 minutes ago, Hammerfestus said:

Ok @cartman you have a lot to say about US politics.  But why don’t we talk about the way you Dutch treat the Sami?

It's not Dutch that's another country. 

But what do you want to talk about in regards to this? We can talk about it the thread is general politics but naturally it will lean mostly towards US

[captmorgandrinker | 1,654]

2 hours ago, cartman said:

It's a fact. Without the American policeforces/klan chapters everything would be harmonious and wonderful

Not sure if that's sarcasm, but if you want harmony and wonder you better get rid of money too.

[Hammerfestus | 4,100]

2 minutes ago, cartman said:

It's not Dutch that's another country. 

But what do you want to talk about in regards to this? We can talk about it the thread is general politics but naturally it will lean mostly towards US

I’m aware.  
 

So you don’t want to talk about Sweden’s treatment of the “Lapps”?  It’s easy to shit on others but looking at your own faults?  Well that would require self awareness.  

[cartman | 195]

2 minutes ago, captmorgandrinker said:

Not sure if that's sarcasm, but if you want harmony and wonder you better get rid of money too.

Sarcasm yes.

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,122]

3 hours ago, arch_8ngel said:

It is a legitimate complaint, and I think it is completely natural to be upset at feeling like injustices against people around you are ignored in favor of attention on other issues.

It really is a tragic demonstration of how deep racial and ethnic tensions go and how hard it is to solve the problem or just to have grievances truly heard.  

I'm genuinely surprised by how many people I talk to in real life can't even seem to understand this simple concept or even try to deflect with the "it's not my problem" excuse without realizing that they are the problem.

Edited June 20, 2020 by Bearcat-Doug

[cartman | 195]

1 minute ago, Hammerfestus said:

I’m aware.  
 

So you don’t want to talk about Sweden’s treatment of the “Lapps”?  It’s easy to shit on others but looking at your own faults?  Well that would require self awareness.  

I told you it wasn't an issue. We can talk about it. I don't know much about it really it isn't really a "trending" topic over here or anything like that. They are recognized as an indigenous people and as far as i know have all the rights afforded to everyone else. Have i made out America as this exclusive place with slavery or discrimination as part of the history and now you're refuting that or what's going on? I have no idea what you're getting at.

[CodysGameRoom | 2,013]

1 hour ago, Estil said:

Did you not see my repeated posts regarding how important freedom of speech is? 

  I say, you wanna a statue of Lenin for whatever reason, go for it. 

Freedom of Speech comes with consequences. What if someone wants to put up a statue of Osama bin Laden in their front yard? They should be allowed to do so? And no one should have issue with it? Come on.

1 hour ago, Estil said:

those symbols are important to nearly all Americans

Yes, this is the point I was trying to make. Symbolism is important to a lot of Americans. Which is why those statues that symbolize hate need to be removed.

However, I'd like to point out that there are a large amount of Americans who look at the flag as a symbol of shame due to the actions our country has taken. Nationalism is not a good thing and many many Americans are aware.

[Strange | 1,727]

39 minutes ago, Estil said:

You're talking about when our ancestors did so during the American Revolution/Declaration of Independence and all that right?

Yes. The Boston Tea Party. The Boston Massacre. During the war, our forefathers adopted guerilla tactics to fight the British that were seen as “incorrect” and “not the way to do things.” We are taught that these acts of insurrection are just.

And as far as “at the voting booth,” right wing voters are constantly talking about the day they’ll topple an oppressive government, violently, with firearms. I know because I was raised around it.

Edited June 20, 2020 by The Strangest

[Estil | 1,291]

56 minutes ago, CodysGameRoom said:

Freedom of Speech comes with consequences. What if someone wants to put up a statue of Osama bin Laden in their front yard? They should be allowed to do so? And no one should have issue with it? Come on.

Yes, this is the point I was trying to make. Symbolism is important to a lot of Americans. Which is why those statues that symbolize hate need to be removed.

However, I'd like to point out that there are a large amount of Americans who look at the flag as a symbol of shame due to the actions our country has taken. Nationalism is not a good thing and many many Americans are aware.

If it's their own private property yes.  As for the "no one should have issue with it"...well doesn't those people who have issue with it also count as free speech?  That's the key thing to remember above all else.  Free speech goes for the recipients of that speech as well.  A perfect example is the Dixie Chicks incident from several years back...they said/made their point for sure.  But they forgot that Bush supporters buy CDs/concert tickets/merchandise too.

Like most anything else in life nationalism can be used for good or evil or anywhere in between.

Edited June 20, 2020 by Estil

[Estil | 1,291]

52 minutes ago, The Strangest said:

Yes. The Boston Tea Party. The Boston Massacre. During the war, our forefathers adopted guerilla tactics to fight the British that were seen as “incorrect” and “not the way to do things.” We are taught that these acts of insurrection are just.

And as far as “at the voting booth,” right wing voters are constantly talking about the day they’ll topple an oppressive government, violently, with firearms. I know because I was raised around it.

You do know (and I myself only found this out recently) that the Tea Partiers made very sure to only dump the tea, and not hurt anyone or anything else in the process.  In fact they even paid for I think it was a padlock of some kind one of them accidentally broke.  And the patriots pretty much had no choice but to use unconventional tactics when going against what was then the world's greatest superpower...and would remain so until about WWII (where do you think the term "the sun never sets on the British Empire" comes from?).  As for their justifications for doing so, you can find that in the Declaration of Independence.

Don't misunderstand me, "constantly talking about" and going out of ones way to encourage violence/revolution and so on is pretty much just as wrong as actually doing it.  Why do you think the Secret Service can bust someone who they see threatening the President's life?  I don't care who does or in whose name/cause they claim doing it, we just cannot have rioting and vandals and so on going on.

Edited June 20, 2020 by Estil

[fcgamer | 5,006]

I still want to know why all Confederate generals are bad guys, and the push to remove their statues / monuments. At the heart of it, they were just people on the losing side of a civil war, and I'd reckon a large portion of them were just for fighting to protect their home, rather than on ideological lines. 

[Estil | 1,291]

10 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

I still want to know why all Confederate generals are bad guys, and the push to remove their statues / monuments. At the heart of it, they were just people on the losing side of a civil war, and I'd reckon a large portion of them were just for fighting to protect their home, rather than on ideological lines. 

They're not "all bad guys".  You'll find that very very seldom if ever can history be split up neatly into groups of "good guys/right side of" and "bad guys/wrong side of" of history.  Hence why I always say there are at least two sides to every story...as very seldom is there only two sides.  For example General Lee only got his slaves via inheritance and freed them voluntarily in 1862...while Grant and I think one other Union general didn't give up their slaves until the 13th Amendment made them.  And Lee was in fact called on by Lincoln to be one of his union leaders, and it was a hard decision for Lee.  But ultimately his first loyalty above all else was to his state of Virginia and so when VA chose to join the Confederacy, well...you do the math.  In fact for much of the first several decades of the US' history (and the Articles of Confederation are the most perfect example of this) people generally felt themselves to be [their state/territory]ians first and Americans second.  Shoot I myself have almost as much pride/patriotism as being a Kentuckian as I do being an American.

Edited June 20, 2020 by Estil

[fcgamer | 5,006]

@Estil yeah I'm familiar with those things you've mentioned above.

 

[Strange | 1,727]

21 minutes ago, Estil said:

1 hour ago, The Strangest said:

 

You do know (and I myself only found this out recently) that the Tea Partiers made very sure to only dump the tea, and not hurt anyone or anything else in the process.  In fact they even paid for I think it was a padlock of some kind one of them accidentally broke.  And the patriots pretty much had no choice but to use unconventional tactics when going against what was then the world's greatest superpower...and would remain so until about WWII (where do you think the term "the sun never sets on the British Empire" comes from?).  As for their justifications for doing so, you can find that in the Declaration of Independence.

Did they also pay for the large amounts of money they cost their oppressors when they violently destroyed all of the tea? The rest of the point is moot. They accomplished their goal, and it wasn’t through peaceful protest. The colonists tried peaceful protests (which, don’t misunderstand me, I much prefer them, I’m only playing devil’s advocate and saying that civil unrest is the consequence of unanswered voices) and were struck down by an oppressive government. These same people violently attacked British troops in the Boston Massacre. Our forefathers were not peaceful citizens trying to set an example for modern day Americans. They were an unheard and oppressed people who were fed up.

21 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

 

I still want to know why all Confederate generals are bad guys, and the push to remove their statues / monuments. At the heart of it, they were just people on the losing side of a civil war, and I'd reckon a large portion of them were just for fighting to protect their home, rather than on ideological lines. 

 

Well besides being actual traitors to the United States who essentially pissed on the flag and everything it stands for, the Confederate bust they’re trying to get removed in Nashville is a former Confederate general who systematically murdered hundreds black union soldiers at the Massacre of Fort Pillow and one of the founders of the KKK+their first grand wizard.

[Estil | 1,291]

7 minutes ago, The Strangest said:

Did they also pay for the large amounts of money they cost their oppressors when they violently destroyed all of the tea? The rest of the point is moot. They accomplished their goal, and it wasn’t through peaceful protest. The colonists tried peaceful protests (which, don’t misunderstand me, I much prefer them, I’m only playing devil’s advocate and saying that civil unrest is the consequence of unanswered voices) and were struck down by an oppressive government. These same people violently attacked British troops in the Boston Massacre. Our forefathers were not peaceful citizens trying to set an example for modern day Americans. They were an unheard and oppressed people who were fed up.

Well besides being actual traitors to the United States who essentially pissed on the flag and everything it stands for, the Confederate bust they’re trying to get removed in Nashville is a former Confederate general who systematically murdered hundreds black union soldiers at the Massacre of Fort Pillow and one of the founders of the KKK+their first grand wizard.

Actually the Loyalists and Patriots also were not just two neat little boxes; it was a spectrum of sorts.  And yes even back then there were "hawks vs doves" among the patriots as well as I'm sure the Loyalists/Tories.  IIRC we still don't know for sure who fired the first shot in that Boston Massacre?  And let's not forget there was little to no what we now know of as First Amendment/Constitutional rights if you guys get what I mean.

And the second paragraph, perfect example of how important it is to pick and choose your battles and how to do it right.  IOW, they're going after someone (I hope in the right peaceful/petitioning/voting sort of way) who really was a bad guy.  Doing that I think will make it much easier and more effective in terms of winning hearts and minds.  Most white Americans are not racist (or at the very least don't want to be) and do in fact want a fair and equal justice system for everyone and whatever reform it would take to better do so.

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

2 hours ago, Estil said:

You're talking about when our ancestors did so during the American Revolution/Declaration of Independence and all that right?  And yes we do have the right to change a government that is no longer serving them...at the ballot box.

Didn't realize the founders toppled British rule from the ballot box.  Thanks for the history lesson.

[Hammerfestus | 4,100]

You lot have been abusing those people since the start.  It’s basically equivalent to our shitty treatment of American Indians.  Pleading ignorance obviously is not a defense for your country’s issues.  What a turd ass country you live in.