Wata & VGA Grading Fails

[Sign Collector Guy | 334]

42 minutes ago, DefaultGen said:

Saw this one. This is the Trilogy version but it doesn't say Trilogy on the label because it's covered with a sticker. Usually they don't screw these up from what I've seen even when they're stickered. People bid ridiculous for it as usual (It's worth like $10 tops). 

 

 

For comparison, the black label copy should look like this:

 

Shhhh. You have alot of folks counting on ignorant people buying sealed games.  

 

On 6/29/2020 at 4:05 PM, Startyde said:

Genny can be tough depending on wrap. I literally fell for this recently on a copy of eternal champions. 

The wrap was immaculate, seam on back and all. But I saw dust and small debris under the wrap, so started second guessing if it was a reseal. Cracked the wrap and of course, everything is gem mint inside, the connectors holding the cart never moved. The debris must have fallen through the small hole on the top over time and collected underneath with age. 

All in all, as others have said, a grading company is less likely to declare something a reseal but rather, that they cannot authenticate the wrap. 

I have a sealed Castlevania II for NES graded by Wata that was previously rejected by VGA. VGA stated that the seal was not consistent with the seals they have seen.

[Speedy_NES | 102]

I figure this thread is as good as any to ask a question I have:  does WATA apply IMP for any mismatches between carts and boxes for oval/round seal and/or non-rev 5-screw/rev-a 3-screw? 

I'm curious because I saw the following, and was wondering whether this is policy or a fail not to consider 3-screw for non-rev box a mismatch?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Top-Gun-For-Nintendo-NES-Rare-First-Print-Wata-9-2-Not-Factory-Sealed-No-Hangtab/254479868299?epid=8317&hash=item3b402ea18b:g:FHgAAOSw3DteG9nn

I realize that the consensus is that even from the factory, not all box/cart/manual combos match up perfectly as intended, but where does WATA draw the line then? Is it when mismatched parts deviate at more than one revision (for instance 3-screw oval cart with 2-code round seal box)? Anybody know?

[tidaldreams | 654]

Here are some fake pokemon DS games, all graded by VGA (they were all sold by the same seller so not sure what is going on there):

 

[WhyNotZoidberg | 590]

Maybe this has been addressed but I couldn't read all the posts here to see.

Robin if you're here, this is Julien St-Pierre. Not hating bro, just didn't want to derail your sales post so I came here.
 

This is a WATA certified PS2 title that's part of the trilogy set. I get that it can be graded as such, but it's part of a set. To me this is like having a manual graded without the box and game.

Thoughts?

[GetTheGreg | 105]

18 minutes ago, WhyNotZoidberg said:

Maybe this has been addressed but I couldn't read all the posts here to see.

Robin if you're here, this is Julien St-Pierre. Not hating bro, just didn't want to derail your sales post so I came here.
 

This is a WATA certified PS2 title that's part of the trilogy set. I get that it can be graded as such, but it's part of a set. To me this is like having a manual graded without the box and game.

Thoughts?

Extremely commonplace.  Go look how many GTA trilogy set games have been graded now haha.

They are obviously WAY less valued than the standalone releases, but I don't really see an issue with them being graded as standalone games since they each have individual factory seals on them.  This game being a 9.2 B+ is actually rather terrible for a trilogy set version haha.  I'm pretty sure you can go buy an entire sealed trilogy set for the same cost as it would have been to grade this game

If once removed from the trilogy set they DIDN'T have seals, it would be a different conversation.

That's how I view it, anyway!

 

Edit: looks like the Trilogy Set is a bit more expensive these days, but my comparison still stands haha.

Edited May 6, 2021 by Maertens29

[DefaultGen | 5,724]

I mean the GTA Trilogy set is more expensive because people are grading the games and getting $100s, there are still tons of them. I have a friend who is 0% involved in the whole Wata scene and I told him to crack and grade them a joke and he's done it multiple times and made profit. It really makes no sense. I constantly stand befuddled at what people are willing to pay for mundane/poor/incomplete things in a Wata case, but there's not much I can do besides buy the things I think are cool while gawking at people buying things I think are strange. If you tried to "educate" people to think how most people do you'd be on Facebook all day telling people to stop buying box set components, Majesco games, Players Choice games for not nearly enough of a discount over original labels, etc.

Edited May 6, 2021 by DefaultGen

[YOURTURN | 1,258]

2 hours ago, WhyNotZoidberg said:

Maybe this has been addressed but I couldn't read all the posts here to see.

Robin if you're here, this is Julien St-Pierre. Not hating bro, just didn't want to derail your sales post so I came here.
 

This is a WATA certified PS2 title that's part of the trilogy set. I get that it can be graded as such, but it's part of a set. To me this is like having a manual graded without the box and game.

Thoughts?

They did mark it as being part of a set. So they did not fail doing that.

And there are those, like me, who collect variants. Even if they were otherwise packed with additional content (i.e. games, books, etc.). You have your reasons not to, which is fine, but you should consider those who do next time.

So for me... This is not a fail. And only because Wata actually did something I would not expect VGA to do.

[DoctorEncore | 3,691]

3 hours ago, WhyNotZoidberg said:

Maybe this has been addressed but I couldn't read all the posts here to see.

Robin if you're here, this is Julien St-Pierre. Not hating bro, just didn't want to derail your sales post so I came here.
 

This is a WATA certified PS2 title that's part of the trilogy set. I get that it can be graded as such, but it's part of a set. To me this is like having a manual graded without the box and game.

Thoughts?

I also think this is incredibly silly. It should have a huge INCOMPLETE or something on the grade. But whatever, I'm a known grading hater.

[WhyNotZoidberg | 590]

16 minutes ago, DoctorEncore said:

I also think this is incredibly silly. It should have a huge INCOMPLETE or something on the grade. But whatever, I'm a known grading hater.

Im not a hater. But this one struck me as odd. Now that box set will remain incomplete forever. Would someone looking for the graded trilogy set want all 3 sealed games graded and slabbed individually? Then what of the outer box? I’d rather see a boxed set graded all together.

 

Now its just a piece of the set. Even if it’s a game, it’s still 1 out of x pieces. No different than grading the extra goodies in a big box collector’s set.

23 minutes ago, FenrirZero said:

They did mark it as being part of a set. So they did not fail doing that.

And there are those, like me, who collect variants. Even if they were otherwise packed with additional content (i.e. games, books, etc.). You have your reasons not to, which is fine, but you should consider those who do next time.

So for me... This is not a fail. And only because Wata actually did something I would not expect VGA to do.

I don’t think it’s a fail, but I do think it’s the top of a slope. This is a fraction of a set, and WATA already grades CIBs and loosies...the logical progression would be to grade other parts that aren’t the game like the manuals and inserts. Is that where we’re headed?

[YOURTURN | 1,258]

Just now, WhyNotZoidberg said:

I don’t think it’s a fail, but I do think it’s the top of a slope. This is a fraction of a set, and WATA already grades CIBs and loosies...the logical progression would be to grade other parts that aren’t the game like the manuals and inserts. Is that where we’re headed?

It's far from the slope, TBH.

For beginners, this is a sealed "Not For Resale" variant. VGA has been grading those long before Wata made the scene. And collectors, like myself, collect these because it was never really an uncommon practice. And it is something that both VGA and Wata seemingly recognized as both are willing to grade these as such. Otherwise VGA would have their policies ban such practices, with Wata repeating that move if the community disapproved.

Plus CIBs? Again, VGA's policies state that CIBs must be unused in order to qualify for their "Q" sub-grade. Which was established long before Wata made the scene. And pretty much stopped for the same reason why Wata has a variant chart for these types of games: Sellers are known to Frankenstein their offerings prior to selling them to those who do not know what should be included in said variant.

But Wata did grade an incomplete CIB in the past. But that was a one-shot event they swore not to repeat. And they also grade the manuals for their overall CIB grades, while adding grades for the inserts. So that is already done.

So all I will say is that being a follower of the grading community, Wata did far more than VGA would have done. Not only did they say it is a "Not For Resale" variant, they said it is part of a set.

VGA would more than likely just mark it as a "Not For Resale" variant. Because they are not paid to be accurate.

[Gloves | 12,261]

The shame here honestly is that people would tear apart a collection to grade these separately. I know they're not particularly rare as-is but like, if grading is preservation then this is the opposite of that. It's CLEARLY a money grab on the part of the people doing this, and that saddens me greatly from a preservations standpoint. Really puts into perspective what some people care about in this regard.

[WhyNotZoidberg | 590]

1 hour ago, FenrirZero said:

It's far from the slope, TBH.

I really don’t know enough about the specifics of grading as you to go point-for-point but I do appreciate all the new info you have given me as per certains policies at VGA and WATA.

I take it from your reply that games like this one have been graded numerous times and it’s common practice, that’s a surprise for me. For the sake of discussion I do feel like this is closer to grading a loose game or better yet a demo disc or soundtrack disc that’s bundled along a game. My trail of thoughts is, yes it is a sealed game, but also it’s one part of a set. Which probably consists of an outer box, 3 games and some inserts. And that package might also have been sold with a plastic seal.
 

But I do see how other people might have a different perspective, like you said one could look at this as a variant for this specific game. Maybe someone wants all versions of only Devil May Cry 2 so this would suit them nicely.

1 hour ago, Gloves said:

The shame here honestly is that people would tear apart a collection to grade these separately. I know they're not particularly rare as-is but like, if grading is preservation then this is the opposite of that. It's CLEARLY a money grab on the part of the people doing this, and that saddens me greatly from a preservations standpoint. Really puts into perspective what some people care about in this regard.

The way I know this seller, he didn’t split a set. He must have bought like this. You make a great point for preservation. If the original item is a collection set, then that’s what should be preserved. 

[Startyde | 180]

1 hour ago, Gloves said:

The shame here honestly is that people would tear apart a collection to grade these separately. I know they're not particularly rare as-is but like, if grading is preservation then this is the opposite of that. It's CLEARLY a money grab on the part of the people doing this, and that saddens me greatly from a preservations standpoint. Really puts into perspective what some people care about in this regard.

This is an interesting perspective. AFA and UKG have started to change how they grade figures because people were taking carded sealed figures with wear, and cracking then open to grade the figure by itself as loose for a higher grade, thus accelerating the destruction of rare carded figures.

While reprints are not "rare" per se, with the grading of CIB, I could see people start to open games with scuffy wrap or a damaged box to try and get mint components to Frankenstein a higher CIB grade for resale. Something to consider when talking about preservation. 

Edited May 7, 2021 by Startyde

[OptOut | 9,031]

As bad as this is, grading straight up bootleg reproduction stuff is WAY worse IMO.

These items may not be complete, but at the very least they are genuine products produced by legitimate publishers... Yeah, I know, low bar.

Damn you WAAAAAAATAAAAAAAA!

[YOURTURN | 1,258]

1 hour ago, Gloves said:

The shame here honestly is that people would tear apart a collection to grade these separately. I know they're not particularly rare as-is but like, if grading is preservation then this is the opposite of that. It's CLEARLY a money grab on the part of the people doing this, and that saddens me greatly from a preservations standpoint. Really puts into perspective what some people care about in this regard.

That is the thing. Getting anything graded does not mean it is preserved for the rest of time. 

It means that unless somebody paid extra for better acrylic (which Wata includes for free), they have minimum protection from UV light and most liquids. They still have to make sure the room these are stored in are both temperature and humidity controlled, with the acrylic cases well taken care of. And if they are bagged, or put in anything that locks out any type of oxygen, they have to let them breath at least a few minutes each year.

Stuff that most "investors" and sellers tend to overlook.

As for collecting... Splitting up a set is common among focus collectors. And in most cases those collectors put their goals before any financial gains. Those who do it for financial means are either doing it to finance their share of the hobby... Or are posers that should be placed in a room full of French-Canadians who just ate Mexican food for the first time.

And I am saying this because I am a focus collector who is happy collecting variants of games (or series) that make me want to play them, collect them, etc. Even if it means splitting them from a box set. 

2 minutes ago, WhyNotZoidberg said:

My trail of thoughts is, yes it is a sealed game, but also it’s one part of a set.

Here's my thoughts based on my time looking at everybody who collects:

- Those who own a split set are not denied the right to also collect a complete box set. In the end they might choose to do this because it helps them feel like their collection is complete. And that is what should matter when it comes to them.

- Those who might own one (or more) parts of a split set are focused on completing their own set goals. In the end they have options beyond the fact they own a piece of a split set. And that is what should matter when it comes to them.

- Those who collect graded games as "investments" and not as pieces of video game history are wrong. Especially if they are willing to ignore all the literal grading fails their collections offer.

In the end, those who do these help me see your collection as your collection. And not just another collection. 

[fcgamer | 5,015]

35 minutes ago, OptOut said:

As bad as this is, grading straight up bootleg reproduction stuff is WAY worse IMO.

These items may not be complete, but at the very least they are genuine products produced by legitimate publishers... Yeah, I know, low bar.

Damn you WAAAAAAATAAAAAAAA!

I wonder if wata would grade my Mario 14

[avoin | 24]

I don't really see the problem with that being graded separately, personally. Much like i wouldn't have an issue with a Mario Kart Double Dash being separated from a Mario kart Gamecube console bundle for example. Depends on what you value i suppose but it is it's own individual sealed game so it would make sense to grade it as such while noting it's origin.

 

The good thing about the hobby is that everybody likes different things/specifics so I'm sure sealed sets in their original condition will continue to exist, even if in lesser numbers in the end.

[YOURTURN | 1,258]

On 5/6/2021 at 10:23 PM, avoin said:

I don't really see the problem with that being graded separately, personally. Much like i wouldn't have an issue with a Mario Kart Double Dash being separated from a Mario kart Gamecube console bundle for example. Depends on what you value i suppose but it is it's own individual sealed game so it would make sense to grade it as such while noting it's origin.

I find it to be ironic, TBH. In this case having an otherwise bundled game graded by itself is a "fail" while turning otherwise rare sealed games into CIB copies is acceptable.  And what makes it more ironic for me is that such claims are something the other video game forums would promote.

But what you said is the main reason why I will never dwell on it. Because for me I find a "fail" to be something that VGA or Wata could have prevented. Everything else is just a random piece of video game history that became part of said collector's history.

As for me... The only sealed U.S. NES title I want is this VGA 85 graded "Challenger Set" variant of Super Mario Bros. 3. With their Archival upgrade since I always pay premium for things I hope to keep long-term. All because I find such variants to be interesting.

On 5/6/2021 at 10:23 PM, avoin said:

The good thing about the hobby is that everybody likes different things/specifics so I'm sure sealed sets in their original condition will continue to exist, even if in lesser numbers in the end.

I would be surprised if nobody had one graded by VGA. Or even UKG since they also grade games.

Edited May 8, 2021 by FenrirZero

[OptOut | 9,031]

According to the latest episode of his podcast, Pat NES Punk recently accidently purchased a WATA graded copy of Winter Games on Atari 2600. However, apparently the game box is NOT securely held in place inside the WATA case... it is loose and rattling around in there.

I'm not sure if this the same for ALL Atari 2600 games graded by WATA, but it doesn't exactly sound like the best method of preservation to me... One decent SHAKE and you're down from a 9.4 to a 9.2! 

[chuppy44 | 56]

This one is a screwup, isn't it?

WATA 7.0 CiB HANGTAB Super MARIO Bros. (Nintendo Entertainment System, 1985) 45496630140 | eBay

According to their own definitive guide for this very game, yes it is.