MtG Power 9 on Antiques Roadshow

[RegularGuyGamer | 2,042]

1 hour ago, arch_8ngel said:

I think his point was that even garbage condition Alpha and Beta are relatively rare since they were limited initial releases, whereas Pokemon 1st edition was everywhere from day 1.

 

Seems like that's just how you feel about Pokemon v MTG. The numbers on the sets were pretty similar. Official numbers on Alpha and Beta sets from WoC are 2.6M & 7.3M.

I'm pretty sure the print runs for 1st edition and Shadowless are actually flipped in the case of Pokemon.

WoC did the first 3 days on the printing press of Base Set as 1st editions. That's an estimated 400k boosters and an estimated 4M cards. Most people never even saw first edition base set backs for sale because they sold out in less than 24hrs.

To say 1st edition base set cards were everywhere really shows how outta da loop you are in the Pokemons lol 1st edition jungle? Sure. First edition Fossil? Sure. Base set. Nah. 

Edited May 13, 2020 by RegularGuyGamer

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

36 minutes ago, RegularGuyGamer said:

 

To say 1st edition base set cards were everywhere really shows how outta da loop you are in the Pokemons lol 1st edition jungle? Sure. First edition Fossil? Sure. Base set. Nah. 

I was a bit old for them when they were released. I only remember a couple of kids in high school having them (and being ridiculed for it), but my younger cousins and little brother were in the target age group and he and his friends and bought into it pretty heavily for their age at the time.

I'm just saying how it felt back-in-the-day, where I knew MtG seemed to be relegated to playing in card shops and at friends houses for a long time, versus seeing kids with Pokemon cards everywhere from *seemingly* the moment they were released.

And you're right, I don't follow pokemon at all -- definitely an outsider perspective, and it may well be that the widely popular run that I saw everywhere wasn't truly the "1st edition".

Edited May 13, 2020 by arch_8ngel

[peg | 382]

I used to have (and still do to a certain extent) a massive collection of vintage MTG cards, which included about 20 power 9, 100+ dual lands, and a bunch of other shit from Arabian Nights, Antiquities, and Legends expansions.

 

I got into it back when legends and the dark were still being sold, which I guess was around 94? I sold a bunch of it a while back and put it into arcade PCB kits and Neo Geo AES games.   I now have a nearly complete collection of Cave PCBs, which are infinity more enjoyable to me now than paper MTG cards.

I do find it a bit strange what MTG cards sell for given their rarity.  Most MTG cards are not rare at all, even stuff like Beta had thousands of each rare printed.  The only stuff I'd truly consider rare (outside of the strange stuff like the Proposal card or Garfield "birth" cards) would be the Alpha set, and even then only when it's in exceptional condition.  I do believe there is a massive amount of hoarders sitting on this stuff, and most of the prices are extremely inflated due to this.

 

Just go on ebay and pretty much every single card from every set is on there with tons of copies available, they are not hard to find at all.  For example, a "rare" Beta Volcanic Island card, (one of the few cards where there is no Alpha version) has nearly 20 copies for sale on ebay right now.  It's not rare, but it sells for thousands.

 

Can anyone imagine ever seeing 20 copies of legit rares like Stadium Events, Myriad, or NWC for sale at one time?  That would be ridiculous.

 

[koifish | 594]

Forgive me for being "that guy" but I wanted to bring up a realization, a sort of "aha moment" I had recently, about trading cards. What I don't get is, so many people I know who play TCGs have spent tons of money buying or building decks, or spent a lot to get the main meta cards for a set, only to drop them like hot garbage for the next meta deck and to repeat the entire process once new cards come out/old cards get retired. What I don't get is, if they are just pieces of paper, then what's the point of buying them at inflated prices? Just print them off at home and stick em in sleeves, maybe with a cheapo card for backing, and it's functionally identical. I am aware this is a known practice (with some name I don't remember) but I feel that I almost never see people do it. I don't know why. If you are going to a tournament then fine, buy the real things, but what are you doing spending hundreds on cards if you aren't going to a tourney? If it is just for friendly play, then your official cards have no difference other than their price.

I have brought this up recently with people, and the first (and only) argument I  received against it was that it was enjoyable to open packs of cards, specifically for drafting, or for the surprise of what you would get. I would counter that you can draft just fine with a computer; Roll some dice to simulate which of the random pulls you would get in the pack and you have already achieved the same effect (give me numbers for common/uncommon/rare per pack and a given set of cards and I could whip out a computer program for this in under an hour). As for the joy of opening a pack, I admit that I too have a fondness for the memories of the feel and smell of a newly opened pack, but is that really worth the premium associated? Personally, I feel like people are overvaluing this sensation. I would like to hear other opinions however.

[peg | 382]

When playing back in the day you'd get shit on if you played with basic lands marked up to be a black lotus or whatever, even in casual play.  Why would it be any different now?  The are called collectable card games for a reason.  It's the equivalent of "collecting" fake games and burned discs.  Sure, they function exactly the same, but they are fucking worthless.

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

21 minutes ago, peg said:

When playing back in the day you'd get shit on if you played with basic lands marked up to be a black lotus or whatever, even in casual play.  Why would it be any different now?  The are called collectable card games for a reason.  It's the equivalent of "collecting" fake games and burned discs.  Sure, they function exactly the same, but they are fucking worthless.

He isn't talking about proxies being "worth" anything -- just that, pragmatically, they should "function" the same for friendly play.

No different than playing games on a PowerPak -- if I just want to use it for the game, I don't really care if it is collectible/valuable.

 

But you're right, back in the day, we all bought into the BS that discouraged proxies and encouraged people to shell out for more cards even when playing friendly games, and kids who tried otherwise were teased for it. 

[peg | 382]

It also wasn't just "BS" that discouraged proxies early on, they were a pain in the ass to deal with in actual games.  Unless you had the ability to print out full color cards somehow back in the early to mid 90s, proxies made the game run much slower and caused lots of confusion, not to mention potential cheating.  You couldn't just look up what a card did on your phone like you can now.

 

Most still needed to read the text of the card to figure out what it did as you'd often encounter things you'd never even seen before.  More seasoned players could recognize things instantly just by the picture.  Have basic lands marked up as proxies completely ruins the flow of the game, as you can't recognize them or at just by a glance.   Each new player you played would then have to go through all the extra work of decoding all your fake cards every time you used them, and it was a pain in the ass and ruined the game.  If it was like 1 or 2 cards, this wasn't that bad, but if 1/2 the deck is full of fake shit is wasn't even worth it to play like that.

 

Maybe with modern technology these aren't really problems anymore, but back then it certainly wasn't just BS or "forcing people to shell out money" or whatever you are trying to get at.

Edited May 13, 2020 by peg

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

30 minutes ago, peg said:

 

Maybe with modern technology these aren't really problems anymore, but back then it certainly wasn't just BS or "forcing people to shell out money" or whatever you are trying to get at.

You would have needed a source for cards you didn't own, but scanners and laser printers were decent enough and prevalent enough that if you really wanted to, you could clone black and white proxies of any card you or your friends already owned.

But I think the other poster was talking about the more modern chase of "meta".  I honestly don't recall that even being a thing during the earlier editions, though.

I didn't know anyone that "just played", though.  Everyone was collecting at some level.

 

But I think he made a fair point that some kids were and are spending absolutely stupid amounts of money on CCGs...though I guess nowadays there are good PC versions that give you the full card roster to play from online, right?  I guess that probably discourages physical proxy play in an era where it would otherwise be more prevalent.

Edited May 13, 2020 by arch_8ngel

[Kguillemette | 1,613]

2 hours ago, peg said:

It also wasn't just "BS" that discouraged proxies early on, they were a pain in the ass to deal with in actual games.  Unless you had the ability to print out full color cards somehow back in the early to mid 90s, proxies made the game run much slower and caused lots of confusion, not to mention potential cheating.  You couldn't just look up what a card did on your phone like you can now.

 

Most still needed to read the text of the card to figure out what it did as you'd often encounter things you'd never even seen before.  More seasoned players could recognize things instantly just by the picture.  Have basic lands marked up as proxies completely ruins the flow of the game, as you can't recognize them or at just by a glance.   Each new player you played would then have to go through all the extra work of decoding all your fake cards every time you used them, and it was a pain in the ass and ruined the game.  If it was like 1 or 2 cards, this wasn't that bad, but if 1/2 the deck is full of fake shit is wasn't even worth it to play like that.

 

Maybe with modern technology these aren't really problems anymore, but back then it certainly wasn't just BS or "forcing people to shell out money" or whatever you are trying to get at.

Believe it or not, the advent of proxies(usually allowing 5 or 10 max) being allowed in Vintage tournaments is what caused a massive spike to the value of p9. In 2002ish, vintage started to heat up in Western Mass. Tournament organizers were trying to boost attendance, since Vintage was a relatively dead format. With more people having access to viable decks and having a shot at being able actually win these high stakes vintage tournaments, attendance soared. StarCityGames started offering tournaments where the entire power 9 was available as a prize, with the top 8 drafting them in the order of final standings. Those tournaments usually attracted 300+ attendees(I traveled to a few of those myself.)

You have to remember that MTG is a Collectable card game. The vast majority of us on VGS are collectors that value condition. The vast majority of Vintage players are also collectors who are just dying for a chance to play with and show off with their expensive toys. So in addition to having a fun weekend and a shot at big prizes, we get to display all the fancy and expensive things we own. As collectors, however, we value condition and style. So while many enter the Vintage format with proxies, we feel compelled to upgrade to the real thing, because we are crazy collectors at the end of the day. The prices of p9 and vintage staples just started to creep up from there. 

 

Then Vintage started to really take off in Europe. European vintage players starting buying all the American p9 largely through a website called MOTL(think VGS for Magic cards) since shipping on pieces of cardboard is not super expensive for international. P9 and staples like Dual lands, Mishra's Workshops, etc bounced higher in value.

 

Then WOTC sanctioned Legacy, which is another eternal format for Grand Prix events, which attract thousands of players trying to get on the pro tour, not to mention a Ten Thousand dollar cash prize(yes, you read that right). Now that your aspiring pro magic card player NEEDS these cards to compete(proxies are not allowed in sanctioned events), there became a massive demand on Legacy Staples, such as dual lands, force of will, wastelands, that they shot through the roof. Since Vintage and legacy share many of the same cards needed to be competitive, not to mention many players from both formats, it caused a big new interest in Vintage as a format. More players= more demand= higher prices.

[RegularGuyGamer | 2,042]

11 hours ago, arch_8ngel said:

and it may well be that the widely popular run that I saw everywhere wasn't truly the "1st edition".

Here are the PSA number for 1st edition and Shadowless Charizards

Consider this. Pokemon TCG had 4 different sets in their first year. The first set sold out so fast and was so under printed, the 4th set was a reprint of the 1st set. 

Then to think 1st editions were less than a 10th of the total print run. There's a reason the gem mint cards are catching up to Midwestern home prices. I don't expect them to ever go down either. 

[peg | 382]

31 minutes ago, Kguillemette said:

Believe it or not, the advent of proxies(usually allowing 5 or 10 max) being allowed in Vintage tournaments is what caused a massive spike to the value of p9. In 2002ish, vintage started to heat up in Western Mass. Tournament organizers were trying to boost attendance, since Vintage was a relatively dead format. With more people having access to viable decks and having a shot at being able actually win these high stakes vintage tournaments, attendance soared. StarCityGames started offering tournaments where the entire power 9 was available as a prize, with the top 8 drafting them in the order of final standings. Those tournaments usually attracted 300+ attendees(I traveled to a few of those myself.)

You have to remember that MTG is a Collectable card game. The vast majority of us on VGS are collectors that value condition. The vast majority of Vintage players are also collectors who are just dying for a chance to play with and show off with their expensive toys. So in addition to having a fun weekend and a shot at big prizes, we get to display all the fancy and expensive things we own. As collectors, however, we value condition and style. So while many enter the Vintage format with proxies, we feel compelled to upgrade to the real thing, because we are crazy collectors at the end of the day. The prices of p9 and vintage staples just started to creep up from there. 

 

Then Vintage started to really take off in Europe. European vintage players starting buying all the American p9 largely through a website called MOTL(think VGS for Magic cards) since shipping on pieces of cardboard is not super expensive for international. P9 and staples like Dual lands, Mishra's Workshops, etc bounced higher in value.

 

Then WOTC sanctioned Legacy, which is another eternal format for Grand Prix events, which attract thousands of players trying to get on the pro tour, not to mention a Ten Thousand dollar cash prize(yes, you read that right). Now that your aspiring pro magic card player NEEDS these cards to compete(proxies are not allowed in sanctioned events), there became a massive demand on Legacy Staples, such as dual lands, force of will, wastelands, that they shot through the roof. Since Vintage and legacy share many of the same cards needed to be competitive, not to mention many players from both formats, it caused a big new interest in Vintage as a format. More players= more demand= higher prices.

I'm aware of all of this, I was a member of motl at one point but stopped using it probably 15 years ago,  before it jumped the shark (from what I've heard).  I started playing and collecting in 1994 and still have the vast majority of my cards.  I sold most of the expensive shit the last couple of years because the prices were just too obscene.  Still have around 2/3 of the beta set with about 1/2 of the rares, it's really hard for me to let go of that stuff still till this day.

 

It makes sense to allow proxies today for cards that sell for thousands of dollars each and if I was ever going to play the game again I'd be using proxies for P9 that I owned which I can't see ever happening at this point.  For the new stuff they are releasing I think it's kind of pathetic if you need proxies for that, it's a big fuck you to WOTC,  the players, and the game itself.

[Kguillemette | 1,613]

16 hours ago, peg said:

I'm aware of all of this, I was a member of motl at one point but stopped using it probably 15 years ago,  before it jumped the shark (from what I've heard).  I started playing and collecting in 1994 and still have the vast majority of my cards.  I sold most of the expensive shit the last couple of years because the prices were just too obscene.  Still have around 2/3 of the beta set with about 1/2 of the rares, it's really hard for me to let go of that stuff still till this day.

 

It makes sense to allow proxies today for cards that sell for thousands of dollars each and if I was ever going to play the game again I'd be using proxies for P9 that I owned which I can't see ever happening at this point.  For the new stuff they are releasing I think it's kind of pathetic if you need proxies for that, it's a big fuck you to WOTC,  the players, and the game itself.

Proxies are more common with pro and semi pro players, when they will simply build multiple decks to see what archetype tests the strongest. Nothing that is brought to a tournament or even meant as casual play.  Simply evaluating the strength of individual cards and decks against the field. Beyond that and proxy vintage tournaments,  proxies were pretty universally frowned upon. Granted I haven't turned a basic island sideways for well over a decade, but I doubt this has changed.

 

MOTL died. It was a great site for a long time, but the owner(Leshrac, AKA Eddie Holmes) stopped updating the price guide, abandoned the site and refused to sell it despite many members being interested in taking it over. The boards slowed down, members left as it became obsolete and it died. Sound Familiar? If he only kept it up a few more years until GoCollect rose to prominence...

 

I know what you mean about not letting go. They call it cardboard crack for a reason!