Calan87 | 45 Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 28 minutes ago, Gloves said: A tiny bit of photoshop effort later and observe the below. Side-by-side of OP's photo vs a NO. 0333 from a quickie google for comparison of similar images. One thing you tend to look for when looking for 'shopped images is sections that were taken from other images and/or created by hand with weak artifact recreation. Notice how the image on the right has no discernible straight edges in the pixellation. It's a smooth "gradient" from the numbers to anywhere else on the image. Note, however, with OP's image that the ENTIRE "NO. 0155" section looks to be a single rectangle, as well as different pixel density compared to the rest of the image. It's not 100%, but without further evidence from OP I can pretty surely tell you that the images provided are fake. There's evidence of this all over the image. Some grade A detective work going on here @Gloves! Never would have known this little trick to look for 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloves | 12,274 Administrator · Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 10 minutes ago, Calan87 said: Some grade A detective work going on here @Gloves! Never would have known this little trick to look for Usually I avoid sharing, to avoid arming fakers with things to look for, but it's among the more surface level tools at my disposal so in this case I figured it's better to inform you all so you know what to look for. Seems OP has ditched at any rate. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrobins | 1,816 Moderator · Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 The added level of scumbaggery here though is that if there is a cart #155 in the wild, there is a possibility that OP's claims of theft may cause grief for the cart's legitimate owner. It is reasonable to think that this guy made similar posts elsewhere that haven't come under as much scrutiny. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloves | 12,274 Administrator · Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 14 minutes ago, Scrobins said: The added level of scumbaggery here though is that if there is a cart #155 in the wild, there is a possibility that OP's claims of theft may cause grief for the cart's legitimate owner. It is reasonable to think that this guy made similar posts elsewhere that haven't come under as much scrutiny. It was originally posted on reddit. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrobins | 1,816 Moderator · Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 2 minutes ago, Gloves said: It was originally posted on reddit. Is that post still up? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulpa | 3,718 Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 1 hour ago, Scrobins said: I seem to remember a similar thread on NA in its last days: someone else acquired the cart, but here was this friend, new to the forum and video game collecting who wanted to help his friend. And somehow we're supposed to believe that two people no one in the community has heard of bumbled into the most valuable cart and need help figuring out what to do with it. Life isn't fair, but it isn't that unfair. Yeah, it's funny how all these seem to have similar setups. "Hey, I'm new to this hobby." (They're always new.) "My buddy found this (Little Samson/NWC/Stadium Events) cartridge (at a thrift store/swap meet/in his attic/closet)" (There's always a "buddy", probably so that access to new photos or more info can be excused with, "well, I have to talk to him but he's in Africa right now.") "and I don't know anything about it, other than it's rare," (And a Google search could tell you the value in a few minutes.) "Can anyone tell me more about it?" (Translation: Any suckers want to Paypal me four to five figures so I can rob you and disappear?) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloves | 12,274 Administrator · Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 Serious question, I can give more details later. What do you all think this would be worth if real? Like what would it sell for, roughly? 10k? 20k? 100000k? Ball park me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulpa | 3,718 Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 Just now, Gloves said: Serious question, I can give more details later. What do you all think this would be worth if real? Like what would it sell for, roughly? 10k? 20k? 100000k? Ball park me. I'd say at least 20K, but they're a bit all over the place at times. I know DreamTR has alluded that some private sales have gone for more, but details are scant. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadeye | 1,601 Homebrew Team · Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 (edited) Not talking about this cart specifically, for me personally $5K. I know the going rate for NWC carts are much higher, but I can't rationalize anything above that. And I guess that is my cap for any video game despite condition or rarity because a NWC cart would be the tops for me. Wasn't the question asked, I am just venting at. Don't want to derail. Edited July 15, 2020 by Deadeye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RH | 5,227 Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Gloves said: A tiny bit of photoshop effort later and observe the below. Side-by-side of OP's photo vs a NO. 0333 from a quickie google for comparison of similar images. One thing you tend to look for when looking for 'shopped images is sections that were taken from other images and/or created by hand with weak artifact recreation. Notice how the image on the right has no discernible straight edges in the pixellation. It's a smooth "gradient" from the numbers to anywhere else on the image. Note, however, with OP's image that the ENTIRE "NO. 0155" section looks to be a single rectangle, as well as different pixel density compared to the rest of the image. It's not 100%, but without further evidence from OP I can pretty surely tell you that the images provided are fake. There's evidence of this all over the image. Stand down guys. I mean, we need to sniff out the fakes and improve our A-game and though Gloves technique of looking at jpeg artifacts is a good one, it's not infallible. The JPEG algorithm compresses the image by creating basically blocks to an image. There are different types of algorithms but depending on your settings, places of even color get that unfocused affect because it helps with compression. When there is higher detail, the block for the image will have more, raw information. So, in the case of the aged labels, you get that pseudo-blur affect, and the letters can appear "boxy" and crisp. This is actually quite common for many images, and if this was shot with a cell phone saving in jpeg format, or possibly even re-saved as as a lower compressed JPEG by some upload tool (like Reddit, here or even Imgur) then the quality of the photo might have dropped with a service upload or two. Anyway, take a look at this NWC auction. It is a WATA graded NWC cart and by all accounts, I think we will agree it's legit. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Nintendo-World-Championships-NWC-1990-Grey-NES-Competition-Cart-0136-Wata-6-0-/153804478670 Now, here is the image blown up 400%. Notice the same looking artifacting, but this is a legitimate image. @Gloves, I'm not trying to call you out but checking artifacts isn't always as easy as it seems and, in fact, I was doing the same analysis before I went to lunch and I was planning on posting my findings after I compared photos, and that's what I'm reporting now. The best way to tell if the artifacting is off is to observe the color palette. In most photoshopped cases, with an image like this, usually the number area isn't as warm or as cool as the original. There is a subtle difference. Also, in the case of the number "155" where you have repeating digits, the photoshopper will avoid using double-digits because those can be most scrutinized. They should look different, yet the same! If this is a fake, the digits look very appropriate. No, it doesn't look like they used a clone tool on the 5's but at the same time, the do appear to be of the same font, which also matches other NWC samples. I'm leaning towards this might have been legitimate. Unless this guy took an image off of the internet and waited 5+ years until google searches didn't bring it up, I have not found a similar cart after extensive searching. At a minimum, we should be able to find one that is set at the exact same angle, but maybe with a photoshopped replaced background. But, gauging by OP's image, the background doesn't appear to be replaced. Search for "NWC cart", "Nintendo World Championship", etc. and see if you can find a similar image. I couldn't, not even with similar label lifting or staining, so this appears to be, at worst, a forged cart shot with a potatoe cam. I'm not saying that's impossible. Maybe it is. But the photo doesn't appear to necessarily be shopped to me. EDIT And just to be clear, these are my own observations. Yes, there's lots of $$$ to be made faking a sale and, yes, this could be a photoshop job. I don't claim to be an expert and I welcome criticisms to my critique of gloves observations. To me, I'm not calling out anyone but healthy "scientific" debate argues whether there are merits to other peoples observations and conclusions. If we can figure this out, we all come out better sniffing out the fakes in the long run. I'm just saying, to me, this artifacting, though "straight" is a little fishy, but not damning. For me to call this a fake, I'd need greater evidence. Based off of the photo alone, I cautiously assume it's legit. If I had the money and desire to buy this, it would be a cash deal, in person, and I'd want to even get a 3rd party to verify it, who's handled multiple copies of these. At possibly +$20k, we can work out getting something like this in the right hands for verification and purchasing. There is NO WAY I'd send any money to anyone selling something this rare and expensive without doing significant due diligence before there was any exchange of cash. Edited July 15, 2020 by RH 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DefaultGen | 5,726 Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 20 minutes ago, Gloves said: Serious question, I can give more details later. What do you all think this would be worth if real? Like what would it sell for, roughly? 10k? 20k? 100000k? Ball park me. Hard to guess with even 2019 seeming like ancient olden times for high end prices. The highest graded one ever sold for $100k this year, which is ridiculous enough. This copy should be nowhere near that. Did the Pink Gorilla copy last year in similar shape (maybe better) sell for $23k? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadeye | 1,601 Homebrew Team · Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 10 minutes ago, DefaultGen said: Did the Pink Gorilla copy last year in similar shape (maybe better) sell for $23k? That is my recollection as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePhleo | 2,273 Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 3 hours ago, NESfiend said: This message immediately followed by a post that the cart was stolen? Can't believe I'm the first to say this was clearly a scam and Phleo asking for more info put the breaks on it. There were plenty of these threads on NA. Always starts, "I'm new to video game hobby and happened upon this NWC cart. I would like to sell or help a friend sell." People ask for more photos beyond the one doctored one the poster has and all of a sudden the item is gone, lost, sold. Im gonna give the guy the benefit of the doubt. It’s very possible given the current cutthroat nature of the hobby that someone has a way to steal this item from the owner. Its not like its far fetched of a scheme either given the recent break in last year at a big video game store. *sigh* But in the meantime I will have to put an asterisk on this copy and mark it as potentially stolen or fake. I don’t track owners, but I sure as hell will use my power as the unofficial number tracker to advise any potential buyers. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloves | 12,274 Administrator · Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 @RH No problem, a second opinion is always good. As I said in my post, it's not 100%. I'd want to see proof. I'd not pitchfork against anyone over my observations. With respect to ensuring our users weren't being scammed, I checked the OP's messages, and two things were consistent, which to me were red flags. I won't go into further details as the rest is between OP and the people they messaged with, but those two things were somewhat red flags to me personally. THAT SAID, OP hasn't returned to update us, BUT that's probably normal - they weren't a member here prior, and so we can't presume that they check here regularly, or even care to. If anyone happens to have more info, I'd encourage them to step forward with it, as I think it's good for the community (not just ours here, but Nintendo history as a whole) to know what's up. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePhleo | 2,273 Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 Also, I need to add I can very easily go through the entire archive of images. I believe I have every publicly known photo of NWC that exist...I scan the web on twitter, Instagram, and forums, blogs, and google for non-duplicate photos....only public place I don’t search is Facebook since I didn’t have an account there prior to last week but I’ll also work on seeing if there’s a way to scan Facebook for non-duplicate images. If any images match this NWC with a different number then it’s a clear fake...if not then it has plausible deniability. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePhleo | 2,273 Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 Confirmed legit original image. The game stays on my list. Im staying out of the drama portion, but I think the topic is done. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadeye | 1,601 Homebrew Team · Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 What happened to the cart though? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NESfiend | 1,561 Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 6 hours ago, Scrobins said: The added level of scumbaggery here though is that if there is a cart #155 in the wild, there is a possibility that OP's claims of theft may cause grief for the cart's legitimate owner. It is reasonable to think that this guy made similar posts elsewhere that haven't come under as much scrutiny. If that scammer's post got me a 0.25% percent discount on a purchase of number 155, id consider it free money. Someone who posts that, then ditches out and says ah it was stolen when asked for more pictures, shouldn't be taken seriously at all. This thread provides zero indication anything has actually been stolen. Look at the guy who owned the MO store that was robbed, an actual victim. He was on nintnedoage, Facebook, YouTube, etc showing dozens of photos to anyone who would look. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrobins | 1,816 Moderator · Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 2 hours ago, ThePhleo said: Confirmed legit original image. What does this sentence mean? You are 100% certain it’s authentic, or you are confirming nothing like it exists in your database? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePhleo | 2,273 Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 14 minutes ago, Scrobins said: What does this sentence mean? You are 100% certain it’s authentic, or you are confirming nothing like it exists in your database? Both. Cartridge is real, and no other photo like it exists in my archive. If drama continues on this particular cart I will remove it from my public facing list though until it resurfaces Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadeye | 1,601 Homebrew Team · Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 (edited) On the most recent episode on CUpodcast, episode #220 (1:14:00 - 1:18:00 ~ish), NWC #155 was covered. However the story is completely different. I didn't double check anything, but this is a summary of what was said: Two independent reports confirmed End label is missing Bought at yard sale for $3, mixed in a stack of games Sold to a game store in West Virginia, rumor to sold for $40K ^^ @ThePhleo @Gloves Edit: Completely different is my speculation. It could also be the story of what happened after it went missing. If someone did a background check on dates, it could be determined, which one it is. Edited July 17, 2020 by Deadeye 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePhleo | 2,273 Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 1 hour ago, Deadeye said: On the most recent episode on CUpodcast, episode #220 (1:14:00 - 1:18:00 ~ish), NWC #155 was covered. However the story is completely different. I didn't double check anything, but this is a summary of what was said: Two independent reports confirmed End label is missing Bought at yard sale for $3, mixed in a stack of games Sold to a game store in West Virginia, rumor to sold for $40K ^^ @ThePhleo @Gloves Edit: Completely different is my speculation. It could also be the story of what happened after it went missing. If someone did a background check on dates, it could be determined, which one it is. This is too complicated for my archival purposes at this point. I'm gonna say that it's best to let time play the story out, but as far as my list is concerned, these reports only add to the validity of the copy existing. I have even less reason to remove it. I treat all NWC Greys as equals, even Howard Phillips copy, the famous #0260 that everyone uses as stock imagery, and the infamous "Mario" copy. What I mean by this is I just care that they exist, and I have a photo of it. My Theory on this cart: OP was a middle man and got cut out of the deal, and the owner gave a story. Either way, enough proof exists from multiple accounts with photographic evidence that it exists and that's good enough for me. The drama doesn't add or take away anything for me. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadeye | 1,601 Homebrew Team · Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 @ThePhleo I tagged you to update you that at least the cart appears to be real. To clarify, I did not intend to debate about including it on the list or not, that's your call. I agree with what you said. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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