American Politics / Current Events Thread

[Hammerfestus | 4,000]

6 hours ago, avatar! said:

Okay, but is that your personal opinion with no evidence to back it up? You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but if it's just a thought in your head, how do you know "the amount of cops who are killed in the line of duty is often vastly exaggerated"? That honestly sounds like something a conspiracy theorist would say. I personally sincerely doubt that to be the case, because it's not as if cops that are killed don't have family, and when they are killed that makes the news big time, and everyone and their grandma hears about it. So, how exactly would someone just make up such numbers?

 

totally proportionate and reasonable eh?

Edited June 21 by Hammerfestus

[Link | 2,838]

31 minutes ago, Hammerfestus said:

totally proportionate and reasonable eh?

"But they're criminals!"
"They should have complied!"
"They shouldn't have been [there, speeding, running away, holding a knife or cell phone, wearing a hood, et cetera]!"

[Hammerfestus | 4,000]

5 minutes ago, Link said:

"But they're criminals!"
"They should have complied!"
"They shouldn't have been [there, speeding, running away, holding a knife or cell phone, wearing a hood, et cetera]!"

That whole culture of thin blue line police worship is beyond absurd to me.  How many people do we have to watch them murder?  I’m so tired of the excuses.  The potential charges never justify extrajudicial executions.  We then watch these police departments sweep it under the rug over and over again.  And they have the audacity to get mad when people are like this is fucking bullshit.  

[Link | 2,838]

I have some exposure to police training and operations.

I can in fact say I know that it prioritizes a culture of self-preservation and that of "brothers" as the primary goal, with violence as a technique acceptable early in the process, while the secondary priority is protection of property and capital (it's just easier for them) and "to serve and protect" all members of the general public is tertiary at best.

There are officers who do honestly try to help people. But the police system in USA is among the most justly criticized in the northwestern world. 

[avatar! | 1,861]

3 hours ago, Khromak said:

I'm surprised to hear you say that being an electrician is an incredibly dangerous profession. I have a friend who is an electrician and I think if I asked him if he thought his job was incredibly dangerous he would laugh in my face. The same could be said for Taxicab drivers, who have a fatality rate more than twice that of police officers and whose fatal events are more likely to be homicides than police officers. If you asked a taxi driver if they thought their job was incredibly dangerous, I think they would also laugh. Airplane pilots, who have a fatality rate over 5x as high as police officers, would also probably say that their job is not very dangerous.

Sure, if you take all police officers in all counties in the entire country and comb for stories where they die, it's not hard to find one. But from a statistical standpoint, it's not very likely that they will be shot at, much less killed. You are much more likely to be murdered if you're a taxi cab driver than if you're a police officer.

Yet, when police officers shoot unarmed people, they say every single time that they "feared for their life". Kyle Woods, after getting into a physical altercation with a suspect, punched him 20 times and THEN shot him, because he feared for his life. Jerold Blanding claimed that a teenager was "grabbing at his waist as if he had a weapon" and then shot him. Aaron Dean claimed he saw a gun in the hands of a woman through a window, told her to put her hands up, then shot her seconds later out of fear for his life.

I'm not saying that police officers are lying about being shot or that there are fake cases. What I'm saying is that every time an unarmed person is shot to death by a police officer, they claim they were afraid for their life and/or thought the suspect had a gun.

I think this is at least in part because of the narrative which is quite popular in our country that policing is an incredibly dangerous job, that cops are at risk of being shot at any random traffic stop. I also think that we should probably stop teaching them how to be warriors and not encourage them to dream up scenarios where they can be a hero, shooting a bad guy before that bad guy can get them. I believe these attitudes contribute to unnecessary escalation and killing. There's no reason to chase after, tackle, punch, taze, and eventually shoot someone because they wouldn't answer your questions or be responsive to your investigation of their behavior.

As far as training, when I said there were abhorrent things I was referring to things like Dave Grossman's "Killology"

I know a bit about electricity and magnetism, and yeah anyone that deals with electricity for a living is often one small mistake away from dying, so yes, a dangerous job -- compared to most other professions, not necessarily police officers.

I'm not saying that police officers are lying about being shot or that there are fake cases. What I'm saying is that every time an unarmed person is shot to death by a police officer, they claim they were afraid for their life and/or thought the suspect had a gun.

Okay, I certainly agree that police should not be able to just hide behind a badge when they do something unlawful. However, that's a completely different argument than the statistics regarding police getting hurt and/or killed.

I think this is at least in part because of the narrative which is quite popular in our country that policing is an incredibly dangerous job, that cops are at risk of being shot at any random traffic stop. I also think that we should probably stop teaching them how to be warriors and not encourage them to dream up scenarios where they can be a hero, shooting a bad guy before that bad guy can get them. I believe these attitudes contribute to unnecessary escalation and killing.

Again, you're entitled to believe what you want, but without any studies/data to back you up, it's just your opinion. I'm not saying I disagree with what you're saying, but I am saying that while that's a "nice thought" without evidence it's just opinion.

As far as training, when I said there were abhorrent things I was referring to things like Dave Grossman's "Killology"

I certainly agree with you on that. But, that's just one example and a very extreme one. Fortunately, Grossman's attitude has been widely rejected "The best police chiefs in the country don’t want anything to do with this." --

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/02/dave-grossman-training-police-militarization/

[Khromak | 802]

Idk what to tell you. Despite having a fatality rate below a tenth of a percentage, officers are saying left and right that they're afraid for their lives when they see someone adjusting their pants or a woman with a video game controller in her hands, while doing a wellness check at a residential home. 

That speaks volumes to me. Can I prove that there's a correlation directly between warrior training and this paranoia? No. But an awful lot of these people went to these classes. The officer who shot philando castille had been to one of Dave's classes and had hundreds of hours of use of force training and only 2 hours of deescalation training. I think that's a problem. We don't need a 5000 person study to tell that this is not a good idea

[avatar! | 1,861]

16 hours ago, G-type said:

First of all, cops do lie all the time when it serves their self-interest. I could post links every day for the rest of my life and never run out of examples of cops lying. Why would they want to lie about how dangerous their job is? well a couple reasons...  it plays into their self-image as the Punisher taking on the world, also it bolsters up a billion dollar scam that the cops are in on.

https://www.rollingstone.com/tv-movies/tv-movie-features/telemarketers-hbo-docuseries-scam-police-safdies-1234797078/

Have you seen the HBO series Telemarketers?

(it's pretty amazing) It's all about how police unions work in collusion with telemarketing call centers to scam people into donating money to support police officers killed or injured in the line of duty.

Well, by law police are allowed to lie to suspects to get information. Fortunately there are limits to what they can do, but there's clearly a difference between lying to a suspect and trying to get information and lying about something that truly happened. I certainly disagree with you regarding police believing they are Punisher-like and "taking on the world". I'm sure there are some police officers like that, but no the majority. Fortunately, we live in a time when there are cameras everywhere and police officers should (most do) wear body cameras.

Have you seen the HBO series Telemarketers?

I have not, but it sounds like something I would enjoy. Thank you, I will look into that. Also, I've seen plenty of excellent documentaries, on Netflix such as the Innocence Files --

Yeah, it's sad and scary stuff. I'll be honest, watching stuff like that makes you realize one thing -- if for any reason you ever get arrested, the words out of your mouth have to be: "I NEED A LAWYER" -- the police want to solve murders, it's their job. I understand that. Unfortunately they sometimes get it wrong, but the DAs are the worst! They will absolutely prosecute people when there's inconclusive evidence and sadly a jury will often convict them. I heard that around 5% of people in jail are innocent -- that's insanely high! Now, all this said, I know it all ties in to the police, BUT I have to say it's not the same argument as "police work is inherently dangerous and stressful" which I hope we can all agree it certainly is.

[avatar! | 1,861]

2 minutes ago, Khromak said:

Idk what to tell you. Despite having a fatality rate below a tenth of a percentage, officers are saying left and right that they're afraid for their lives when they see someone adjusting their pants or a woman with a video game controller in her hands, while doing a wellness check at a residential home. 

That speaks volumes to me. Can I prove that there's a correlation directly between warrior training and this paranoia? No. But an awful lot of these people went to these classes. The officer who shot philando castille had been to one of Dave's classes and had hundreds of hours of use of force training and only 2 hours of deescalation training. I think that's a problem. We don't need a 5000 person study to tell that this is not a good idea

I noticed you completely ignored the statistic I gave you regarding officers injured on the job -- so here it is again

https://policeepi.uic.edu/law-enforcement-safety/

In 2021, 15,369 officers were injured on the job.

And of course some injuries are minor. Some injuries are not life-threatening because an officer was shot in the chest while wearing a jacket, but I don't think anyone can saying getting shot at is not serious! You can NOT just go by fatality records and say "see! the police have it easy" when so many are injured on the job.

We don't need a 5000 person study to tell that this is not a good idea

Things are not going to change for the better with someone just stating their opinion and expecting results based on just their opinion! I absolutely believe there need to be studies done on policing to figure out how to best serve the public. I'm 100% in favor of police reform and better police training. However, to say that they have an easy job or to try to minimize the risks they face will do nothing to help the public.

[Khromak | 802]

14 minutes ago, avatar! said:

I noticed you completely ignored the statistic I gave you regarding officers injured on the job -- so here it is again

https://policeepi.uic.edu/law-enforcement-safety/

In 2021, 15,369 officers were injured on the job.

Couple notes here then, while we're on the topic. From your link:

1. They are more likely to suffer injuries when they use force
2. Far more likely to suffer injuries and illnesses through non-violent means
3. Most are caused by falls, motor vehicle crashes, overexertion, or being caught between/under objects

They're not being assaulted constantly. They have a physical job and drive a lot. Quick Google says there are 850,000 law enforcement officers in the USA. That between 1-2% of them was injured in a year, mostly non-violently, does not make me particularly afraid for their lives, TBH.

[Khromak | 802]

18 minutes ago, avatar! said:

However, to say that they have an easy job

Could you please show me where I, or anyone on this thread, said they have an easy job?

[avatar! | 1,861]

1 minute ago, Khromak said:

Could you please show me where I, or anyone on this thread, said they have an easy job?

The rest of my sentence was or to try to minimize the risks they face will do nothing to help the public.

I do see you as minimizing the risks they face.

I don't think you and I are going to see eye-to-eye on this, and that's fine. I don't take this personally, just a difference of opinion. However, I still think the statistics show that they have a very stressful and overall dangerous job. You're right, an officer is more likely to be injured by something other than bullets, but a life-threatening situation is always a possibility any time they take a call. And again, I fully support police reforming when done properly. Knee-jerk reactions such as "defund the police" have done zero to help the public.

[Khromak | 802]

19 minutes ago, avatar! said:

The rest of my sentence was or to try to minimize the risks they face will do nothing to help the public.

This is extremely disingenuous though. If I said "For you to say that they have a difficult job or that Hitler was a good guy." technically it would be correct, you did one of those things. Knowing that I didn't do the other one though, it seems really strange to include two options with an or.

Edit: this might've been too ridiculous an example to show the point. Another example might be "For you to say they have a difficult job or they're infallible, unbiased arbiters of justice"

I think "Defund the police" was probably the biggest mistake in the history of police reform. Not because of the actions (or frankly, lack thereof) taken in furtherance of this cause, but because of the HORRIFIC name chosen.

To be clear, anyone with half a brain who supports "Defund the police" doesn't want to defund the police. The nuance that is totally lost with this horrible slogan is...they want to divert resources AND responsibilities from the police to organizations better equipped to handle those situations. If someone is suffering from a schizophrenic episode, instead of sending an armed police officer there, send a psychologist, therapist, psychologist, social worker, etc. If it's a homeless person, send social services. Divert funds and phone calls from police to a different resource that is better trained for that situation.

Anyway that aside, I agree maybe we'll never see eye to eye, but I also think your views of how dangerous it is are still failing to grasp the realities of all these statistics. Sure 15,000 seems like a lot of injuries when you look at the raw numbers, but when you look at the percentages and rates per 100,000 you realize the numbers are absolutely miniscule. I'm just as upset about officers being hit by vehicles, exhausted from working tons of overtime, or bring pinned underneath some building material while responding to a call. I wish this never happened to them and I'm very grateful that they do this difficult job that I would never want to do.

That doesn't mean that I can't criticize other, quite egregious, problems with their behavior, attitudes, and training though. Before you say it: yes, I know that there are plenty of good cops in this world, I'm not on the level of ACAB or anything, but I think there is rot pretty deep in the core of a lot of police departments and they need some major changes, including and especially as it relates to their and the public's view of their job's dangerousness. For a job to have a 1.5% injury rate per year and a 0.01% fatality rate for year to be called incredibly dangerous is just extremely off-base, IMO.

Edited June 21 by Khromak

[Link | 2,838]

1 hour ago, avatar! said:

I certainly disagree with you regarding police believing they are Punisher-like and "taking on the world".

Explain please?

1 hour ago, avatar! said:

police officers should (most do) wear body cameras.

...and turn them off during the exact confrontations under critique. 

[Khromak | 802]

17 minutes ago, Link said:

1 hour ago, avatar! said:

police officers should (most do) wear body cameras.

...and turn them off during the exact confrontations under critique. 

I'm not entirely sure this is fair. There has been plenty of misconduct caught on police body cameras and I think most jurisdictions have very strict policies about the circumstances under which they can turn off their cameras and have paperwork/reviews required for instances where cameras were turned off.

Whether or not the punishments for improperly following this procedure (or other misconduct) are actually sufficient...I'm not sure I'm convinced. That said though, I don't think "turn off your body cam right before shooting someone" is all that common, on the whole. Body cameras have been a huge boon and I think they're being implemented reasonably well, considering who's doing it

[avatar! | 1,861]

57 minutes ago, Link said:

Explain please?

...and turn them off during the exact confrontations under critique. 

Of course there are a few police officers who think they can do whatever or act however, unfortunately that's true with any profession. You can't judge all 850,000 some police officers by the actions of a few morons. Just like you can't judge all video game players by the actions of a few morons, and hey, there are morons everywhere!

Edited June 21 by avatar!

[Hammerfestus | 4,000]

5 hours ago, avatar! said:

Of course there are a few police officers who think they can do whatever or act however, unfortunately that's true with any profession. You can't judge all 850,000 some police officers by the actions of a few morons. Just like you can't judge all video game players by the actions of a few morons, and hey, there are morons everywhere!

What are you even talking about?   “video game players” are not out there murdering people.  When some kid playing games acts like a Nazi everyone just gets to go on their merry way back up to their mom’s fridge.  We’ve all heard the rhetoric, seen the flags, gotten stuck behind the bumper stickers.  There is a significant American subculture rooting for these dudes out there playing Rambo shooting black kids.

[avatar! | 1,861]

On 6/21/2024 at 9:23 PM, Hammerfestus said:

What are you even talking about?   “video game players” are not out there murdering people. 

[Hammerfestus | 4,000]

37 minutes ago, avatar! said:

Nearly decapitates?  Weak.  Learn from CPD.  Make sure your victims are dead.

https://www.cleveland.com/metro/2017/06/michael_brelo_stays_fired_othe.html

Edited June 24 by Hammerfestus

[avatar! | 1,861]

16 hours ago, Hammerfestus said:

Nearly decapitates?  Weak.  Learn from CPD.  Make sure your victims are dead.

https://www.cleveland.com/metro/2017/06/michael_brelo_stays_fired_othe.html

I see you're cherry picking, a story from 2017 where the incident happened in 2012. Definitely not condoning what happened, but yeah, that was a dozen years ago. Also, You said gamers don't kill, but they do, just as much as the rest of the population -- just another example --

Teen’s killer may have driven from California to Texas to end video game feud, cops say

https://www.star-telegram.com/news/nation-world/national/article245150215.html

I've always believed in police reform, but not "defund the police" which most moderate and truly liberal people knew was stupid to being with and has not accomplished anything to help people --

81% of Black Americans Don't Want Less Police Presence Despite Protests—Some Want More Cops

https://www.newsweek.com/81-black-americans-dont-want-less-police-presence-despite-protestssome-want-more-cops-poll-1523093

 

[Khromak | 802]

Ummm...I don't think that @Hammerfestus original point was "no gamer has ever killed anyone". I think his point was was gamers aren't carrying lethal weapons with them when they game, they aren't interacting with the public, don't have authority over others, etc. This was...pretty obvious from the context, at least to me. I think if you compared the number of people killed by someone who was actively gaming to the number of people killed by someone actively policing, the police have a higher kill count every year since video games were invented. Granted, it's not a fair comparison, but that's why it was a hyperbolic statement made to prove a point. Point is: the stakes of judging all gamers by one metric and judging all police by a metric are...extremely different.

1 hour ago, avatar! said:

I've always believed in police reform, but not "defund the police" which most moderate and truly liberal people knew was stupid to being with and has not accomplished anything to help people

I tried to explain this earlier but I think you just heard what you wanted to hear? A few random whackos might want to defund the police by completely abolishing the organization, but that's not a widely held belief. The majority of "moderate" and "liberal" people who are making calls to "defund the police" are saying more like...restructure the roles and responsibilities of the police and stop giving them used military equipment. It's really easy to DESTROY someone's argument when you make up the worst version of it and pretend that's what they proport. This is an extremely clear example of a strawman, IMO. I don't think it's intentional, but I think it's very real and you should re-examine the lens through which you see these things.

1 hour ago, avatar! said:

81% of Black Americans Don't Want Less Police Presence Despite Protests—Some Want More Cops

Once again, this would be pretty obvious/intuitive to me...the protests following the death of unarmed black people aren't about firing all the cops in the country and turning to anarchy, they're about identifying the very different ways which cops interact with black americans and the outcomes they can expect when dealing with a cop compared to what white folks experience.

Nobody wants a lawless country with flagrant crime, they want a justice system that is fair, equal, and (in my opinion) focused more on rehabilitation/problem solving rather than punishment.

[avatar! | 1,861]

38 minutes ago, Khromak said:

Ummm...I don't think that @Hammerfestus original point was "no gamer has ever killed anyone". I think his point was was gamers aren't carrying lethal weapons with them when they game, they aren't interacting with the public, don't have authority over others, etc. This was...pretty obvious from the context, at least to me. I think if you compared the number of people killed by someone who was actively gaming to the number of people killed by someone actively policing, the police have a higher kill count every year since video games were invented. Granted, it's not a fair comparison, but that's why it was a hyperbolic statement made to prove a point. Point is: the stakes of judging all gamers by one metric and judging all police by a metric are...extremely different.

I tried to explain this earlier but I think you just heard what you wanted to hear? A few random whackos might want to defund the police by completely abolishing the organization, but that's not a widely held belief. The majority of "moderate" and "liberal" people who are making calls to "defund the police" are saying more like...restructure the roles and responsibilities of the police and stop giving them used military equipment. It's really easy to DESTROY someone's argument when you make up the worst version of it and pretend that's what they proport. This is an extremely clear example of a strawman, IMO. I don't think it's intentional, but I think it's very real and you should re-examine the lens through which you see these things.

Once again, this would be pretty obvious/intuitive to me...the protests following the death of unarmed black people aren't about firing all the cops in the country and turning to anarchy, they're about identifying the very different ways which cops interact with black americans and the outcomes they can expect when dealing with a cop compared to what white folks experience.

Nobody wants a lawless country with flagrant crime, they want a justice system that is fair, equal, and (in my opinion) focused more on rehabilitation/problem solving rather than punishment.

I may very well have misinterpreted what he said. I was under the impression his statement was that gamers are just all peaceful-loving people who simply make-believe wars etc. like children and never harm anyone. Of course the vast majority of gamers are not going to go out and kill people, but the vast majority of police are not going to do so either. That said, clearly there's a huge difference because police are "allowed" to use force in certain instances to take someone down. Truth is, if someone breaks into your house you also have the right to use force, but again there's a clear difference between the two. And from the get-go, I have always said police reform is a must. It sickens me to read about police brutality and how they often get away. Along those lines, I also believe in judicial reform. Happy to discuss it, but overall I really I do agree with most of what you say

 

[Hammerfestus | 4,000]

4 hours ago, avatar! said:

I may very well have misinterpreted what he said. I was under the impression his statement was that gamers are just all peaceful-loving people who simply make-believe wars etc. like children and never harm anyone. Of course the vast majority of gamers are not going to go out and kill people, but the vast majority of police are not going to do so either. That said, clearly there's a huge difference because police are "allowed" to use force in certain instances to take someone down. Truth is, if someone breaks into your house you also have the right to use force, but again there's a clear difference between the two. And from the get-go, I have always said police reform is a must. It sickens me to read about police brutality and how they often get away. Along those lines, I also believe in judicial reform. Happy to discuss it, but overall I really I do agree with most of what you say

 

I was pointing out the absurdity of your comparison.  Like how do you compare some random dude killing his mom to an army of armed enforcers taking the lives of the people they are supposed to be protecting and serving on a whim?  These are supposed to be reliable civil servants…to all of society.  
 

 

 I did choose a shooting from 10 years ago specifically because of its insanely excessive nature and it was local so it immediately came to mind when thinking on the topic.  I chose an article from 2017 because it demonstrated the complete lack of accountability that follows.  The only MFer that lost their job was the guy that stood on the hood of the vehicle and reloaded several times. By the way it seems Rambo in this instance is some sort of cousin of my significant other and let me tell you, there is a fucked up amount of excusing his actions.  But also quiet agreement that this guy was known as being a psycho and no one ever should’ve given him a gun.

[G-type | 2,679]

I believe there are many situations in which police are not the most qualified or appropriate people to respond.. especially people with mental health issues. Taking funding from police budgets and it putting towards social workers and mental health crisis teams would save lives. It would also save the tax payers money from having to pay out settlements because cops have itchy trigger fingers.

My sister personally knew this family (the dad was a co-worker at Google), whose son was murdered by the police during a mental health crisis:

https://apnews.com/article/mental-health-crisis-police-shooting-death-settlement-4c0cdfc6d54a2dc488218d7e5e186925

[Khromak | 802]

@G-type also did a great job of showing Defund the Police. This is what the movement is about, not about removing all police from the streets. Again, I really think the branding ruined this movement because a strawman of it is constantly ridiculed by the far right.

Sorry for your loss, the way we respond to emergencies is such a sham in this country, it really needs major reform but the existing systems are so entrenched.

[spacepup | 2,447]

I think part of the problem is that, whether intentional by different parties or misunderstanding, people tend to simplify this situation to being solidly one side or the other --- 'cops are amazing' vs. 'all cops are bastards,' when in reality, the issues are significantly more complex and nuanced.  I'm glad to see that part discussed above, because there is a lot of misunderstanding about what the various movements are about.  

Politics and individual perspectives *seem* to be so completely polarizing these days, and very few seem to want to budge or understand, that conversations quickly break down and it is difficult to find common ground on any topic, which is unfortunate.

I rarely want to get involved in public political discussions because most people don't want to have an open discussion with room for understanding - they just want to blast at the other side about why they are wrong.

On that note, I know this thread can get heated sometimes, but I'm glad to see that after 93 pages of conversations, people seem to mostly be keeping things under control and not getting too feisty with each other.  I really appreciate that effort and I think that's important if we want to keep having conversations here.  Thanks to everyone for that.