International Politics / Current Events Thread

[avatar! | 1,936]

4 hours ago, Khromak said:

 

I'm not sure what your point is here...I'm guessing it's "crazy people will murder people regardless whether they have guns" or "it's possible for a person with a knife to kill someone" but um...

If this guy had 3 pistols, an AR-15, and a shotgun, he definitely would've killed more than 3 people. This story absolutely enforces my point earlier in the American thread.

I don't know how anyone can deny that. Guns are just easier to use and more lethal than knives, that's a fact. I think @Silent Hill was simply bringing up the point that people will always find ways to kill and maim. As far as I see it the points here --

1)Guns are more deadly than knives and there needs to be some (common sense) regulation.

2)Most gun deaths are due to suicides. The next largest factor in homicides is gang related. Mass shootings while too common, are actually relatively very rare although they always get the most media attention.

3)The UK has separate laws regulating firearms. Since guns are very hard to get a hold of (although not impossible, they still have murders with firearms), most criminals in the UK use knives which in the right hands are extremely deadly and quiet -- that's something that allows them to be "stealthy". In the UK, it's gotten to the point where they are calling it a "knife epidemic".

[Silent Hill | 284]

2 hours ago, Hammerfestus said:

4 hours ago, Silent Hill said:

 

Who's responsible for the knife attack in Cleveland?

What are you trying to imply here?  What’s the new euphemism you guys are using now?  DEI?   fucking creepy.  The whole conservative schtick is super creepy.  Fetishizing guns?  Creepy.  Theocratic aspirations?  Creepy.  Big pick up truck?  Creepy.  Tradwife?  Creepy.   Doth protest too much about gay dudes?  Creepy.  Listen to country music?  Creepy.  Do I need to continue or did I make my point?  I haven’t even hit on the support for Jeffrey Epstein’s good buddy.

Hoo boy....

The answer is the person, the person is responsible for the knife attack. Not the knife, or pro-knifers.

This is really going to blow your balls off: I lean conservative on most issues and am pro-2a, own 2 guns, am not religious in the slightest, hate country music, don't own a pickup truck, and have zero issue with gay people. Though you got me on "tradwife" though - my wife adored staying at home with our two kids for 7 years. She even cooks meals 6 nights a week!!! Real creepy stuff.

Edited August 1 by Silent Hill

[Silent Hill | 284]

17 minutes ago, avatar! said:

4 hours ago, Khromak said:

 

I'm not sure what your point is here...I'm guessing it's "crazy people will murder people regardless whether they have guns" or "it's possible for a person with a knife to kill someone" but um...

If this guy had 3 pistols, an AR-15, and a shotgun, he definitely would've killed more than 3 people. This story absolutely enforces my point earlier in the American thread.

I don't know how anyone can deny that. Guns are just easier to use and more lethal than knives, that's a fact. I think @Silent Hill was simply bringing up the point that people will always find ways to kill and maim. As far as I see it the points here --

1)Guns are more deadly than knives and there needs to be some (common sense) regulation.

2)Most gun deaths are due to suicides. The next largest factor in homicides is gang related. Mass shootings while too common, are actually relatively very rare although they always get the most media attention.

3)The UK has separate laws regulating firearms. Since guns are very hard to get a hold of (although not impossible, they still have murders with firearms), most criminals in the UK use knives which in the right hands are extremely deadly and quiet -- that's something that allows them to be "stealthy". In the UK, it's gotten to the point where they are calling it a "knife epidemic".

I unintentionally may have come off like a dick to @Khromak as he did agree with the overall point of violence will exist regardless, but yeah, that quote just so happened to pop in my head when you shared that story. 

[Khromak | 837]

Knive deaths in UK (200~300/yr)

Gun deaths in UK (150~200/yr)

Compare to USA:

30~50k gun deaths per year.

Sure, the US has 5x as many people, but (optimistically) 50x as many violent deaths. Is our country just filled with psychopaths that don't exist anywhere else in the world? Do they not have suicide in the UK? Do they not have gangs, or stress, or mental health problems? What's the X factor here, in your opinion? The biggest way to stop people from shooting each other (and themselves) in the tens of thousands is to bring them to therapy?

Edited August 1 by Khromak

[Hammerfestus | 4,100]

40 minutes ago, avatar! said:

That really reads like cliches of stereotypical "white dudes living in the deep South" -- which is not accurate. Granted I haven't lived in the deep South, but I do know lots of people from the region and have visited the South (Georgia and Alabama mostly) numerous times. Do some of them fetishize guns? Probably, but some people in Massachusetts do as well. Do some of them have pickup trucks? Yeah, and they use it for work, same as people in Massachusetts. Do they listen to country music? Not much more (if at all) than people in Massachusetts. I honestly can't tell if you're being serous, which I can think you are, which is a bit ridiculous honestly. Look, I'm against Trump as anyone on VGS. I 100% believe in separation of church and state. But, I couldn't give a damn if someone has a large pickup or listens to country music so long as they're decent folk, and most are.

Nah.  These guys are all over.  Where the hell are you living in the country that you think I was exclusively referring to southern stereotypes? Work trucks are fine whatever of course.  But you and I both know the vast majority of F150s with FJB stickers are not that.  Oh and on the topic of stickers, if you see a man with an American flag punisher sticker on his truck that man is a Nazi.  Card carrying.  We all know.
 Just got home from Columbus, stopped at Cracker Barrel for lunch on the way.  Holy shit it’s like a damn klan rally in there.  Probably should have known though.  Bob Evan doesn’t put up with that shit.

[avatar! | 1,936]

21 minutes ago, Khromak said:

Knive deaths in UK (200~300/yr)

Gun deaths in UK (150~200/yr)

Compare to USA:

30~50k gun deaths per year.

Sure, the US has 5x as many people, but (optimistically) 50x as many violent deaths. Is our country just filled with psychopaths that don't exist anywhere else in the world? Do they not have suicide in the UK? Do they not have gangs, or stress, or mental health problems? What's the X factor here, in your opinion? The biggest way to stop people from shooting each other (and themselves) in the tens of thousands is to bring them to therapy?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_the_United_Kingdom

I'm assuming you're being rhetorical, but an interesting question nonetheless. Over 5600 suicides recorded in 2022 in the UK. Even with our larger population, we have a significantly higher suicide rate in the USA than in the UK. That said, we're about in the middle across the globe --

https://ourworldindata.org/suicide

Also, I would say it's easier (and less "painful") to use a firearm than knife. That at least explains why people opt to use firearms so often when committing suicide, and those numbers then get lumped in to "deaths by guns" in the USA which I personally feel is a bit disingenuous. There definitely needs to be more mental health services offered in the USA.

[Silent Hill | 284]

26 minutes ago, Hammerfestus said:

Nah.  These guys are all over.  Where the hell are you living in the country that you think I was exclusively referring to southern stereotypes? Work trucks are fine whatever of course.  But you and I both know the vast majority of F150s with FJB stickers are not that.  Oh and on the topic of stickers, if you see a man with an American flag punisher sticker on his truck that man is a Nazi.  Card carrying.  We all know.
 Just got home from Columbus, stopped at Cracker Barrel for lunch on the way.  Holy shit it’s like a damn klan rally in there.  Probably should have known though.  Bob Evan doesn’t put up with that shit.

lmao was it the number of trucks, punisher stickers, white men, or pointy hats that tipped you off?

[Khromak | 837]

19 minutes ago, avatar! said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_the_United_Kingdom

I'm assuming you're being rhetorical, but an interesting question nonetheless. Over 5600 suicides recorded in 2022 in the UK. Even with our larger population, we have a significantly higher suicide rate in the USA than in the UK. That said, we're about in the middle across the globe --

https://ourworldindata.org/suicide

Also, I would say it's easier (and less "painful") to use a firearm than knife. That at least explains why people opt to use firearms so often when committing suicide, and those numbers then get lumped in to "deaths by guns" in the USA which I personally feel is a bit disingenuous. There definitely needs to be more mental health services offered in the USA.

Yeah and um...the easier and less painful way of ending your life could also be less available. That would help us to not die.

I'd like for people to die less, regardless of who is holding the weapon.

I'm all for mental health services too, but I think the emphasis on mental health services and ignoring the impact of guns (or pretending that reducing gun ownership is impossible) is equally, or more, disingenuous to "lumping in" suicides with homicides. I'd like for there to not be 'cides of any kind, thanks. We shouldn't just ignore all suicides.

IDK about "middle" across the globe...your link shows 191 areas/regions and the US is in 31st place of highest suicides per 100k people. Of the 30 countries above us, I think I could point to < 5 of them on a map..How many of these would you consider to be the USA's "peer" countries?

Lesotho, Guyana, Eswatini, Micronesia (country), Kiribati, Suriname, Central African Republic, Mozambique ,South Africa ,Zimbabwe ,Russia, Vanuatu ,South Korea ,Lithuania ,Botswana ,Uruguay ,Mongolia ,Kazakhstan ,Eritrea ,Ukraine ,Solomon Islands ,Cote d'Ivoire ,Moldova ,Montenegro ,Belarus ,Latvia ,Cameroon ,Somalia ,Zambia ,Cape Verde

edit to add: the UK is in 118th place, since it's been part of our comparison here. They have (2019 data) just under half as many suicides per 100k as the USA does. Weird, I wonder why their knife epidemic isn't causing lots of knife suicides.

Edited August 1 by Khromak

[Hammerfestus | 4,100]

9 minutes ago, Silent Hill said:

lmao was it the number of trucks, punisher stickers, white men, or pointy hats that tipped you off?

Full on red hats.  Makes you uncomfortable having your kids in a place like that.  

[avatar! | 1,936]

2 minutes ago, Khromak said:

Yeah and um...the easier and less painful way of ending your life could also be less available. That would help us to not die.

I'd like for people to die less, regardless of who is holding the weapon.

I'm all for mental health services too, but I think the emphasis on mental health services and ignoring the impact of guns (or pretending that reducing gun ownership is impossible) is equally, or more, disingenuous to "lumping in" suicides with homicides. I'd like for there to not be 'cides of any kind, thanks. We shouldn't just ignore all suicides.

IDK about "middle" across the globe...your link shows 191 areas/regions and the US is in 31st place of highest suicides per 100k people. Of the 30 countries above us, I think I could point to < 5 of them on a map..How many of these would you consider to be the USA's "peer" countries?

Lesotho, Guyana, Eswatini, Micronesia (country), Kiribati, Suriname, Central African Republic, Mozambique ,South Africa ,Zimbabwe ,Russia, Vanuatu ,South Korea ,Lithuania ,Botswana ,Uruguay ,Mongolia ,Kazakhstan ,Eritrea ,Ukraine ,Solomon Islands ,Cote d'Ivoire ,Moldova ,Montenegro ,Belarus ,Latvia ,Cameroon ,Somalia ,Zambia ,Cape Verde

So you're against euthanasia? It's illegal in most of the US and where it's legal you have to jump through many hoops. People make arguments "if you want to commit suicide you're not in a right frame of mind" which is arguably true most of the time. Although others would argue "your life, as long as you're informed do what you will" -- and sure, we'd all like for people to "die less" and to "live in a better world" and yes, this all ties in to guns because again most homicides in the USA are suicides.

With regards to "peer" countries, what does that even mean? Peer in GDP? then none of them. Peer as in far less violence per capita? Then quite a number of them such as Micronesia, South Korea, Moldova, etc. Also sorry you can only point to <5 of them on a map, but that doesn't diminish the country in any way shape or form -- I mean, Americans do suck overall at geography

[avatar! | 1,936]

2 minutes ago, Hammerfestus said:

Full on red hats.  Makes you uncomfortable having your kids in a place like that.  

I can understand this. I will say that while I disagree with Trump supporters, I think the vast majority are just people trying to live their lives. But, that said, at least some Trumpers have shown they are willing to resort to violence.

[Khromak | 837]

Come up with whatever definition of peer you want. Here's another way to express my point:

Do you think the average American would be proud of the fact that the USA surpassed *insert country here* in a metric?

"Hey Jimbob, did you know this country is so great that we've got a LOWER suicide rate than Suriname? Aren't you proud of that?"

If you said this with countries lower on the list like Greenland, the UK, France, Germany, Japan, Poland, etc. I think you'd have a different answer.

 

I'm in favor of euthanasia when administered by a doctor after thorough evaluation of the medical circumstances and psych evaluation etc. I'm not a big fan of 19 year olds with no medical issues killing themselves while under the influence of drugs because their SO broke up with them, or they didn't make it into the university they wanted to. Sure, they deserve autonomy, but I don't think having a high suicide rate is a sign that we're more free than other first world countries. I personally take it as a point of shame, not pride.

Edited August 1 by Khromak

[Hammerfestus | 4,100]

2 minutes ago, avatar! said:

I can understand this. I will say that while I disagree with Trump supporters, I think the vast majority are just people trying to live their lives. But, that said, at least some Trumpers have shown they are willing to resort to violence.

And if they’ve got the hat on then you know they are going to be on the more fanatical side rather than ambivalent.    
 

Like, Ohio has open carry right?  So last summer my daughter was in a city parks & rec tball league for 4 & unders.  Here comes this Schmuck with a god damn pistol strapped to his waist.  He had the haircut.  You know the one.  Take your stupid bullshit somewhere else buddy.   Coming in all strapped up like Mr tough guy around my baby girl?  Fuck that.  You’re not protecting shit.  You are the threat.  

[avatar! | 1,936]

9 minutes ago, Khromak said:

Come up with whatever definition of peer you want. Here's another way to express my point:

Do you think the average American would be proud of the fact that the USA surpassed *insert country here* in a metric?

"Hey Jimbob, did you know this country is so great that we've got a LOWER suicide rate than Suriname? Aren't you proud of that?"

If you said this with countries lower on the list like Greenland, the UK, France, Germany, Japan, Poland, etc. I think you'd have a different answer.

 

I'm in favor of euthanasia when administered by a doctor after thorough evaluation of the medical circumstances and psych evaluation etc. I'm not a big fan of 19 year olds with no medical issues killing themselves while under the influence of drugs because their SO broke up with them, or they didn't make it into the university they wanted to. Sure, they deserve autonomy, but I don't think having a high suicide rate is a sign that we're more free than other first world countries. I personally take it as a point of shame, not pride.

That's rather a red herring argument. No one is proud of "suicide rates" but it's all taken in perspective. You learn what other countries are doing right, or not, and then see whether that applies here. To simply dismiss it all as merely a "metric" does no one any good.

Who gets to decide when euthanasia is appropriate? If you have bodily autonomy should the individual be allowed to choose, or must they go through a psychiatric evaluation, then a medical doctor, then... well honestly with all that in mind it's almost not surprising that people just grab a gun. Also many who commit suicide often have no viable way to see a doctor, hence why I keep arguing for more mental health services. Suicide rates among adolescents has actually been declining,and is the lowest of all age groups. It's highest among Americans that are 85 or older. Then the next group is 75 to 84, then people in their 40s and 50s.

https://afsp.org/suicide-statistics/

Does someone who is 90 still have to get permission and see a bunch of specialists who will tell her "you've still got a long life ahead of you!" or is that only reserved for the truly young? What about someone who is 50?

[ZeldaFreak | 3,730]

6 minutes ago, Khromak said:

I'm not a big fan of 19 year olds with no medical issues killing themselves while under the influence of drugs because their SO broke up with them, or they didn't make it into the university they went to.

Honestly this is a totally different topic to the one at hand, but I think the problem is you're not considering a mental issue as a medical issue. Mental illness can be just as, if not more debilitating than physical medical issues in many cases, speaking as someone who's been severely clinically depressed for several years and had several close brushes with suicide, and otherwise been what you would consider mentally ill for about half of my life (or arguably longer depending on how you define anger issues.)

The topic of whether or not someone should be "allowed" to commit suicide is a complex one and one I don't have really have a concrete answer to, but there are far more complicated, dare I say understandable reasons why someone would not want to be alive despite the fact that they don't have any physical issues (even though mental issues can oftentimes LEAD to physical issues.) Reducing suicide to 19 year olds killing themselves under the influence of drugs because their SO broke up with them is super disingenuous and reductive of a much larger and complex issue for both this country in particular, and humanity as a whole.

[Khromak | 837]

16 minutes ago, ZeldaFreak said:

Reducing suicide to 19 year olds killing themselves under the influence of drugs because their SO broke up with them is super disingenuous and reductive of a much larger and complex issue for both this country in particular, and humanity as a whole.

I wasn't trying to reduce all suicides to this specific example, I was just giving extreme examples on both sides. Someone who is in chronic pain (mental or physical) and someone who is temporarily going through a difficult event in their life but without any chronic or long-term issues.

I'm aware that some people will commit suicide and for some people I'm sure it's preferable to being alive and they should have that option available to them. I still think there are lots of people who could overcome their issues, again mental and physical, and live a happy and satisfying life. I think it's a tragedy that we lose the people in the latter category and that we as a society should support them and prevent them from taking their lives if possible.

Larger point though was: humans will commit suicide sometimes. I think it's a worthwhile exercise to compare suicide rates across countries as a way to determine how well different countries are handling this human issue. I think if your suicide rate is much higher than similar countries (say for example double) then there's probably a problem there. We should evaluate why this is happening and try to help these people rather than saying "oh well, they are free to kill themselves if they want and we shouldn't stop them because it's their life."

[avatar! | 1,936]

1 hour ago, Khromak said:

Larger point though was: humans will commit suicide sometimes. I think it's a worthwhile exercise to compare suicide rates across countries as a way to determine how well different countries are handling this human issue. I think if your suicide rate is much higher than similar countries (say for example double) then there's probably a problem there. We should evaluate why this is happening and try to help these people rather than saying "oh well, they are free to kill themselves if they want and we shouldn't stop them because it's their life."

But you never said what exactly is a "similar country"? If the country is a democracy? Well then Costa Rica should be "comparable" to the USA -- but is it really? Geographic location? Then Israel and Lebanon -- but that doesn't sound quite right does it. It's a flawed methodology trying to do something like that, because countries are all inherently different in numerous ways. At the end of the day, it's important to just look at the entire statistics and try to determine what might work and what might not. This is something done all the time in science. For example, if you're trying to figure out how deadly a new strain of virus might behave, you look at the statistics as a whole. You can't just say "well, it had a lethality of 0.05% in Bangladesh, so it will absolutely be terrible in the USA". 

[Khromak | 837]

46 minutes ago, avatar! said:

But you never said what exactly is a "similar country"?

I get that you're just trying to get me to nail it down to a specific metric but this can't be a serious question. I'll put together a list for you, ask your family, friends, or co-workers and get back to me.

"Which of these countries is similar to the USA (check all that apply)?"

A.) Lesotho

B.) Guyana

C.) Eswatini

D.) Micronesia

E.) Kiribati

F.) Suriname

G.) United Kingdom

H.) France

I.) Italy

J.) Germany

 

Let me know the results.

Edited August 1 by Khromak

[Khromak | 837]

If it helps you with my other ambiguous terminology earlier in the thread, you can also ask the same audience: "Which of these countries would you consider a peer of the USA?" and use the same list of countries.

[Link | 2,878]

American supporters of gun rights have very little overlap with supporters of funding of mental health services and legislation, despite their constant talk about it. 

[avatar! | 1,936]

16 minutes ago, Khromak said:

I get that you're just trying to get me to nail it down to a specific metric but this can't be a serious question. I'll put together a list for you, ask your family, friends, or co-workers and get back to me.

"Which of these countries is similar to the USA (check all that apply)?"

A.) Lesotho

B.) Guyana

C.) Eswatini

D.) Micronesia

E.) Kiribati

F.) Suriname

G.) United Kingdom

H.) France

I.) Italy

J.) Germany

 

Let me know the results.

You're welcome continue to gaslight this as much as you want, but my question was 100% serious and I feel my point has been made --

Namely, it's easy to go and be self-righteous and say things like: "If only guns didn't exist the world would be better... No one should ever die by suicide...etc etc" BUT when it comes to actually looking at what science and data show, well, things get far far hairier and there's no simple answer.

[Khromak | 837]

8 minutes ago, avatar! said:

You're welcome continue to gaslight this as much as you want, but my question was 100% serious and I feel my point has been made --

I think you're either dramatically misinterpreting my intentions or need to review what gaslighting means, because I've done absolutely no such thing.

9 minutes ago, avatar! said:

Namely, it's easy to go and be self-righteous and say things like: "If only guns didn't exist the world would be better... No one should ever die by suicide...etc etc" BUT when it comes to actually looking at what science and data show, well, things get far far hairier and there's no simple answer.

I don't think there's a simple answer to the gun problem in the USA, not even close. I think the solution needs to be multi-pronged and lots of different levers need to be pulled on to make progress. I would challenge you to please quote any time I said there is a simple answer to this problem.

Where I take issue is when people deflect the gun violence problem in the USA with the same old tired talking points, namely these ones here:

Add on to that:

"It's not a gun problem, it's a mental health problem"

"If they didn't have guns, they'd just use knives"

and so on and so forth. I don't buy these arguments because I believe mental health problems exist all over the world, including in countries with half (or less) the suicides/homicides as the USA has. These places which are "overrun" with knife violence, like what triggered this discussion again, have absolutely miniscule amounts of murders and suicides compared to the USA.

I have said it 10 times already in this and the previous thread but I'm all for increasing access to mental health services in the US, nothing would make me happier. My problem is when the excuse of mental health is used to dismiss the fact that we have 4x more guns in civilian hands than almost any other country on the planet and pathetically few (if any) restrictions on gun ownership in certain states. Any time this is brought up the response is "well, responsible gun owners don't hurt anyone, we just need to get the bad gun owners a psychiatrist" which is, in my opinion, an absolute cop out. Everyone has struggles and it does nobody any favors to have a full gun safe when you're in crisis.

[avatar! | 1,936]

1 hour ago, Khromak said:

These places which are "overrun" with knife violence, like what triggered this discussion again, have absolutely miniscule amounts of murders and suicides compared to the USA.

 

I have said it 10 times already in this and the previous thread but I'm all for increasing access to mental health services in the US, nothing would make me happier. My problem is when the excuse of mental health is used to dismiss the fact that we have 4x more guns in civilian hands than almost any other country on the planet and pathetically few (if any) restrictions on gun ownership in certain states. Any time this is brought up the response is "well, responsible gun owners don't hurt anyone, we just need to get the bad gun owners a psychiatrist" which is, in my opinion, an absolute cop out. Everyone has struggles and it does nobody any favors to have a full gun safe when you're in crisis.

Where do you get the notion that countries with knife violence have "minuscule" amounts of murder and suicides? The statistics don't agree, certainly with respect to suicides --

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/suicide-rate-by-country

One example, Japan has a suicide rate of 15.3 per 100,000 while the USA has 16.1 which is larger, but not by much. Japan's gun-related death is one of the lowest of all countries, but again, high-number of suicides. Another example, Finland. Their gun-related death is substantially higher than Japan (2.9) but far less than the USA (10.84). However, suicide rate is also 15.3 so I don't see any correlation as you stated.

I don't understand your last statement "Everyone has struggles and it does nobody any favors to have a full gun safe when you're in crisis."? Yes, everyone has struggles and the vast majority of people don't shoot other people. No doubt about that. Nor am I or most people saying mental health services will solve all our problems, but it will help. If you believe such statements are a "cop out" than I'd like to see some research to back that up. Otherwise it's just your personal belief, and you're entitled to it, but everyone has their own beliefs.

[Khromak | 837]

6 minutes ago, avatar! said:

One example, Japan has a suicide rate of 15.3 per 100,000 while the USA has 16.1 which is larger, but not by much. Japan's gun-related death is one of the lowest of all countries, but again, high-number of suicides. Another example, Finland. Their gun-related death is substantially higher than Japan (2.9) but far less than the USA (10.84). However, suicide rate is also 15.3 so I don't see any correlation as you stated.

OK, I can cherry pick only the best examples to suit my case as well:

Greece has a suicide rate of only 5.1 per 100k and they have 17.6 firearms per person, about 1/7th of the rate the US has and .3 gun deaths per 100k. Look, we can solve the whole problem. Similarly, Italy has only 6.7 suicides per 100k, 14.4 firearms per person (fewer than 1/8th of the US), and .2 gun homicides per year. Looks like having few firearms reduces suicides and homicides, we should get rid of our guns.

[avatar! | 1,936]

11 hours ago, Khromak said:

OK, I can cherry pick only the best examples to suit my case as well:

Greece has a suicide rate of only 5.1 per 100k and they have 17.6 firearms per person, about 1/7th of the rate the US has and .3 gun deaths per 100k. Look, we can solve the whole problem. Similarly, Italy has only 6.7 suicides per 100k, 14.4 firearms per person (fewer than 1/8th of the US), and .2 gun homicides per year. Looks like having few firearms reduces suicides and homicides, we should get rid of our guns.

5.1 and 6.7 doesn't sound "minuscule" to me, nor is it.