NES Shmups

[docile tapeworm | 4,221]

11 minutes ago, mbd39 said:

Nintendo says that DK3 is a shooting game in the description, but lists genre as action and arcade.

https://www.nintendo.com/games/detail/arcade-archives-donkey-kong-3-switch/

 

 

You see. Is multi genre. Not a shooter. Has shooter elements and gameplay but not a shooter.

[docile tapeworm | 4,221]

C’mon put jaws up there. I want credit for that one. Or don’t, I win that round either way

[the_wizard_666 | 1,329]

The shooter genre is pretty easy to figure out.  You need shooting, obviously, but also the screen should auto-scroll.  If it doesn't, you have an action game.  So some issues with the original list @Crabmaster2000 posted:

Air Fortress - This is a genre hybrid, with a SHMUP portion and an action portion.

Back to the Future - This has the auto-scrolling of the SHMUP genre, but no actual shooting.  This fits better in the "action" category than as a shooter.

Captain Planet and the Planeteers - Again, more of a hybrid game.  As the kids it's a shooter, but once Captain Planet is summoned it becomes more of an action game.  Also not sure if the scrolling in the shooting section is an auto-scroll or not, it's been a while since I've played it

Cobra Command - No scrolling = no shooter.  It's a tactical action game.

Defender II - This one's tricky, but I default to the "no scrolling, no shooter" mindset.  Should be listed as an "arcade" game.

Destination Earthstar - Another hybrid.  Part of the game is indeed a shooter, but it's hidden behind a flight simulation.

Empire Strikes Back (Hoth and Bespin) - I don't think the 2600 portion fits as a shooter, but Bespin sure does.  Still, I would classify it as an action-platformer, much like Vice Project Doom.  You wouldn't call VPD a first-person rail shooter just because of the one level.

Kid Icarus (final stage?) - Yeah, the final stage, and ONLY the final stage, is a shooter.  That would make this a hybrid at best however.

Section Z - An interesting one, as it's definitely a shooter, but with exploration elements.  Only commenting because I think that's a cool addition to the genre, as opposed to a disagreement with the classification like the rest of these scrubs

The Guardian Legend -  This is another hybrid.  The NES had a lot of these eh

The Hunt for Red October - This fits if you exclude the final level, which turns it into an action-platformer out of nowhere.  But for like 95% of the game, it's a shooter.  Just making a note rather than disputing the classification.

The Little Mermaid - Another action game.  This one doesn't even really have a shooter element to it.  Not sure how it made the cut...

Wurm: Journey to the Center of the Earth - If you only play it for 5 minutes, yeah, it's a shooter...but it's definitely a hybrid.

Xexyz - Definitely has shooter portions, but the bulk of the game is an action adventure.

 

And now for the list of questionables, here's my thoughts:

Balloon Fight? - Arcade, no question

Bump n Jump? - This one's tricky...it has pretty much every aspect of a shooter except for the shooting.  I'd call it an arcade-action title rather than a shooter.

Captain Skyhawk? - While it's most certainly not something that most people think of when thinking about shooters, it checks all the boxes.  Scrolling.  Shooting.  Yup.

Cybernoid: The Fighting Machine? - Action-adventure with shooter elements would be my pick.

Galaga? - No question about this one either, it's a single-screen arcade game.  Shooting alone does not make a shooter, you also need a scrolling screen to fit the genre.

Gyruss? - This one is tricky, but I think it fits.  "But where's the scrolling" I hear you say...well, I would say it's unique in that the ship is scrolling along the Z-axis rather than the X- or Y- axis.  That said, it would also fit well in the arcade genre, so either could work, and would hear no dispute from me.

Iron Tank? - Naw, it's an action game through and through.

Jackal? - Same thing.  Action, not shooter.

Knight Rider? - Interesting...shooter elements added to Rad Racer.  I noticed in the longplay I watched that the player only shot at some cars and not all...I'm thinking shooting everything in sight is not the goal, which would put me off calling it a shooter.  That said, I think it fits best as a racer/shooter hybrid.

Mach Rider? - Much like Knight Rider, I'd be okay with it being called a shooter, but it fits better as a hybrid racer/shooter than as a straight up version of either.

Millipede? - Single screen arcade games are easy.  It's "arcade," not "shooter."

Paperboy? - Arcade action.

Paperboy 2? - Also arcade action.

Raid on Bungeling Bay? - Starting to see a pattern with these arcade action games...

Roadblasters? - Pretty much the same thing as the two Rider games above.  I'd be okay with it, but it's not the right fit imo.

Ultimate Air Combat (bombing missions) - The bombing missions are arcade-action, no question.  The rest is obviously a flight simulator

Edited December 16, 2021 by the_wizard_666

[the_wizard_666 | 1,329]

24 minutes ago, docile tapeworm said:

C’mon put jaws up there. I want credit for that one. Or don’t, I win that round either way

I'd class Jaws as arcade-action. No scrolling, no shooter.

[Tulpa | 3,594]

I kind of see Skinny's point about DK3 and BTTF. The primary action of those isn't to destroy something. In DK3, it's to shove DK up out of the greenhouse. Yes, you're using a projectile of sorts, but it's not really in the shooter spirit. For BTTF, it's more of a game of avoidance. You can complete the main levels without shooting anything.

Paperboy is another game of avoidance, though you do have to get at least one paper to a house to finish a level.

[Tulpa | 3,594]

2 minutes ago, the_wizard_666 said:

The shooter genre is pretty easy to figure out.  You need shooting, obviously, but also the screen should auto-scroll.

But scrolling shooter is a defined subgenre in the overall shooter category for some, which would class Galaga in the non-scroll/fixed screen shooter category.

[Tulpa | 3,594]

8 minutes ago, the_wizard_666 said:

Gyruss? - This one is tricky, but I think it fits.  "But where's the scrolling" I hear you say...well, I would say it's unique in that the ship is scrolling along the Z-axis rather than the X- or Y- axis.

Eh, you're not really scrolling, though. Look at the boss fights or the fights against the stations, You're not moving closer to them at any point.

[docile tapeworm | 4,221]

@Tulpa Im saying. And at the end of the day do you really wanna be that guy saying “paperboy is a shooter”? Nah…nah you don’t man. Don’t do it.

[docile tapeworm | 4,221]

Master blaster? Yup that’s a shooter (like air fortress is. With platforming elements (like dk3).

write it up! Master blaster certified shooter.

[docile tapeworm | 4,221]

SMB. Shooter when you get the flower.

[docile tapeworm | 4,221]

Face it every game is a shooter.

[Tulpa | 3,594]

4 minutes ago, docile tapeworm said:

Face it every game is a shooter.

Except Gun-Nac. That game is not a shooter.

 

 

 

[JamesRobot | 5,883]

51 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

But scrolling shooter is a defined subgenre in the overall shooter category for some, which would class Galaga in the non-scroll/fixed screen shooter category.

Galaga scrolls.

[Tulpa | 3,594]

2 minutes ago, JamesRobot said:

Galaga scrolls.

I was just thinking of that. In fact, the only difference between it and Recca is that your ship can't move forward and backward relative to the background, and the enemies stay in formation longer (except the bonus stages.) The background has no obstacles in either game to affect your progress.

 

Edited December 16, 2021 by Tulpa

[docile tapeworm | 4,221]

Look anybody saying Galaga isn’t a shooter…..go play dk3.

[glazball | 176]

Galaga certainly qualifies, but I have to agree Paperboy does not.  If the object of a shoot-em-up is to in fact shoot them up, Paperboy does not qualify.  Sure, you release a projectile but the intent is not to destroy something with it (well, for the friendly houses at least!).  Paperboy does not count as a shmup.

@the_wizard_666 brings up some good points above, but I can't agree that a shmup must scroll.  Similarly, a platformer doesn't need to scroll to the right to be considered a platformer (original Mario Bros, Jumpman Jr, etc).  I think it would also be wise to exclude "arcade" as a genre because it's doesn't really fit, at least not for this type of discussion.  Something like Balloon Fight should fall under "action."

For DK3, it's right on the line.  Since the objective isn't to destroy or kill DK with the bug spray, it probably shouldn't qualify as a shmup.  Maybe it should be called a sprmup - a spray 'em up!

Edited December 16, 2021 by glazball

[WhyNotZoidberg | 590]

1 hour ago, the_wizard_666 said:

Shooting alone does not make a shooter

 

 

[Tulpa | 3,594]

Arcade as a genre is too broad. There's so many different types of arcade games.

[Tanooki | 4,994]

There's relatively nothing about Paperboy that says shooter, it's a game where you target stuff, sure, but it's more a shooter in line with like a non-zapper using game taking pot shots at stationary (like hogans alley) or moving (clay ducks on a path duckhunt) targets.  A real 'shooter' is more of an active thing where youre' consistently unloading hot shots at multiple targets that consistently approach, Paperboy doesn't qualify for that.

Donkey Kong 3 does surprisingly enough.  It's basically Galaga, in a green house, where you take out all sorts of bugs (like Galaga again) on set paths but also have the unfortunate bonus of blowing DDT up DKs ass until he gets scorched enough to leave the arena to clear the stage.  If DK3 didn't count as a shooter it would immediately have to negate Galaga and others like it such as the famicom stuff like Galaxian and Space Invaders.

And yes GunSmoke is a shooter, qualifies under the terms, just it's cowboys and bounties not space stuff, same firing mechanics otherwise.

[Crabmaster2000 | 513]

The amount of thought an analysis by you guys is incredible. Love checking in on this thread every few hours to see some new thoughts

[the_wizard_666 | 1,329]

1 hour ago, WhyNotZoidberg said:

 

Is Contra a shooter?  Or Rambo? 

3 hours ago, Tulpa said:

But scrolling shooter is a defined subgenre in the overall shooter category for some, which would class Galaga in the non-scroll/fixed screen shooter category.

Which is a different genre from shooters.  When I say "shooter," I think "shoot-em-up."  And when I think "shoot-em-up" I absolutely do NOT think of fixed-screen arcade shooters like Galaga or Space Invaders.  Fixed screen shooters are a subgenre of arcade games, not shooters.

2 hours ago, JamesRobot said:

Galaga scrolls.

No, Galaga's background scrolls.  Take out the star field and you have Space Invaders without the bases.

1 hour ago, Tulpa said:

Arcade as a genre is too broad. There's so many different types of arcade games.

Well yeah, that's kind of the point...and why there's more sub-genres of arcade games than any other genre. 

 

16 minutes ago, Tanooki said:

There's relatively nothing about Paperboy that says shooter, it's a game where you target stuff, sure, but it's more a shooter in line with like a non-zapper using game taking pot shots at stationary (like hogans alley) or moving (clay ducks on a path duckhunt) targets.  A real 'shooter' is more of an active thing where youre' consistently unloading hot shots at multiple targets that consistently approach, Paperboy doesn't qualify for that.

Donkey Kong 3 does surprisingly enough.  It's basically Galaga, in a green house, where you take out all sorts of bugs (like Galaga again) on set paths but also have the unfortunate bonus of blowing DDT up DKs ass until he gets scorched enough to leave the arena to clear the stage.  If DK3 didn't count as a shooter it would immediately have to negate Galaga and others like it such as the famicom stuff like Galaxian and Space Invaders.

And yes GunSmoke is a shooter, qualifies under the terms, just it's cowboys and bounties not space stuff, same firing mechanics otherwise.

This is why shooting does not equal shooter.  You can shoot shit in the majority of video games, but I wouldn't call 99% of them shooters.

 

1 hour ago, glazball said:

Galaga certainly qualifies, but I have to agree Paperboy does not.  If the object of a shoot-em-up is to in fact shoot them up, Paperboy does not qualify.  Sure, you release a projectile but the intent is not to destroy something with it (well, for the friendly houses at least!).  Paperboy does not count as a shmup.

@the_wizard_666 brings up some good points above, but I can't agree that a shmup must scroll.  Similarly, a platformer doesn't need to scroll to the right to be considered a platformer (original Mario Bros, Jumpman Jr, etc).  I think it would also be wise to exclude "arcade" as a genre because it's doesn't really fit, at least not for this type of discussion.  Something like Balloon Fight should fall under "action."

For DK3, it's right on the line.  Since the objective isn't to destroy or kill DK with the bug spray, it probably shouldn't qualify as a shmup.  Maybe it should be called a sprmup - a spray 'em up!

I wouldn't call any of those games platformers either.  Much like how I say fixed screen shooters are not shoot-em-ups, I wouldn't call them platformers either.  They have elements of what we'd call a platformer, sure, but they're not quite there.  What I would say is games like Galaga, Centipede, or Space Invaders were proto-shooters, as they lack enough to not fit in the genre, but their influence on it is undeniable.  I think that's where much of the issue lies - they're not true shoot-em-ups, but they have a ton of elements that make you feel like they should be.

As for the point about "shooters must scroll," I suppose I could concede that point, but there's also a general, linear progression through the game. That would actually make more sense, as a game like Time Pilot would absolutely be a shooter, but lacks the scrolling features.  This would also make a game like Gyruss fit better.

[Tulpa | 3,594]

6 minutes ago, the_wizard_666 said:

No, Galaga's background scrolls.  Take out the star field and you have Space Invaders without the bases.

By that argument, Recca is a fixed screen shooter.

[Tulpa | 3,594]

9 minutes ago, the_wizard_666 said:

As for the point about "shooters must scroll," I suppose I could concede that point, but there's also a general, linear progression through the game. That would actually make more sense, as a game like Time Pilot would absolutely be a shooter, but lacks the scrolling features.  This would also make a game like Gyruss fit better.

You also have to realize that some shooters stop scrolling at points (i.e., most boss battles.) I mean, Gradius II has a whole level where you don't scroll.

[Tulpa | 3,594]

51 minutes ago, Tanooki said:

Donkey Kong 3 does surprisingly enough.  It's basically Galaga, in a green house, where you take out all sorts of bugs (like Galaga again) on set paths but also have the unfortunate bonus of blowing DDT up DKs ass until he gets scorched enough to leave the arena to clear the stage.

The thing about DK3, though, only some of the enemies are destroyed. The caterpillars aren't, they're just incapacitated, and DK is only shoved up the rails. Galaga, every enemy can be blown to bits.

[docile tapeworm | 4,221]

Did i miss someone questioning gun smoke being a shooter?